[Bf-taskforce25] Modifier Layout Proposal

Sat Jun 6 23:21:23 CEST 2009

>> In the stack, custom names are not visible.  I use
>> custom names on modifiers and constraints all the
>> time.
> ....
>
> I didn't show it well in the proposal, but the idea is to be able to
> click on the names of the modifiers and change them.

   That wasn't what I meant.  I assumed that custom names were still
there.  I was saying that they aren't visible in the stack because the
stack in your proposal is rows of icons.

   But I think it's a moot point now?  I think we mostly agree to
stick with the current system.

Matt Ebb:
> I would definitely not like to have to click on individual modifiers
> to see their settings. One of the advantages of Blender's modifier
> stack over Max's for example is that you *can* see everything at a
> glance.

   This is also why I would like to see physics modifier's settings
actually moved into their stack items.  As I said in an earlier email,
if they're going to be modifiers, they should really truly be
modifiers.  And that includes their settings being in the same place
as other modifiers, and being able to add more than one, each with
different settings.
   It's a weird and confusing exception to have just these one kind of
modifiers have their settings in a completely different part of the
interface.

   If that doesn't fit with how they work, then IMO they don't belong
in the modifier stack at all.

--Nathan V

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Eclectiel L<eclect25 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I think there are no 'big' problems with the modifiers/constraints
> workflow the way it is now.
>
>
> This proposal had several intentions:
>
> - Attend what was previously discussed about including Physics
> modifiers that would have many settings, needing more vertical
> space, and could take other modifiers out of the screen, forcing
> users to scroll, and not having the desired settings always visible.
>
> - Eliminating some buttons and widgets to avoid redundancies,
> giving a cleaner aspect and reducing vertical space usage.
>
> - Show a drag and drop workflow. This kind of workflow may have
> some advantages, like for instance adding several modifiers at
> once, and allowing a cleaner interface since actions are done
> with gestures (drag-drop) instead of using buttons/widgets. The
> "Modifiers Row" is an alternative that makes these gestures
> possible.
> And any visual workflow, in my opinion, can be easily learned
> through a video-tutorial.
>
>
>
>> I would definitely not like to have to click on individual
>> modifiers to see their settings. One of the advantages
>> of Blender's modifier stack over Max's for example is
>> that you *can* see everything at a glance.
> ....
>
> I like the "everything at a glance" style too. In the mockup is not
> necessary to click on every modifier. The default behaviour is to
> show all modifiers at once as they are assigned. And if users
> decide, for instance, to see a Physics modifier alone so other
> modifiers don't get in the way, they click on it, do what they
> need, and then they show all the assigned modifiers again just
> clicking the Modifiers Row.
>
>
>
>> My biggest concern is its heavy reliance on icons
>> without corresponding text.
>
> I agree with that. I personally do ok with icons only, but many
> people like the icons/text alternative. So it's necessary.
>
> For this, an alternative could be something like:
> http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9560/iconslistdropdowntext.png
>
>
>
>> In the stack, custom names are not visible.  I use
>> custom names on modifiers and constraints all the
>> time.
> ....
>
> I didn't show it well in the proposal, but the idea is to be able to
> click on the names of the modifiers and change them.
>
>
> Again, I don't believe there is any deep problem with the actual
> modifiers/constraints workflow, I just tried to add in the
> direction of the points I mentioned above.
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Eclectiel.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Nathan Vegdahl <cessen at cessen.com>
> To: The Blender 2.5 TaskForce <bf-taskforce25 at blender.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 5, 2009 6:57:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bf-taskforce25] Modifier Layout Proposal
>
> There's definitely some cool stuff in this mockup, but I have some
> concerns with it as well.
> My biggest concern is its heavy reliance on icons without
> corresponding text.  For me this is two-fold:
>
> 1. It is not obvious at-a-glance which modifier is which.  In practice
> people will only use a few of the modifiers most of the time, so when
> they need to find one that they don't use as often (and thus don't
> know the icon) they are forced to hover their mouse over each icon in
> turn and wait for the tooltip in order to find what they're looking
> for.  This is even worse for new users who don't have any of the icons
> memorized.
>
> 2. In the stack, custom names are not visible.  I use custom names on
> modifiers and constraints all the time to help organize and document
> things, and IMO it is critical to be able to see them at-a-glance in
> the stack.
>
> But having said that, I do think that having compact stack, and
> selecting items in the stack to see their settings, is an excellent
> idea.  But I'd rather have a vertical stack with text as well as
> icons.  And I think in practice you would need extremely large stacks
> for that to become a space issue.
>
> --Nathan V
>
> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 5:00 AM, Eclectiel L<eclect25 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Here is a mockup for Modifiers workflow that may also be valid for
>> Constraints.
>>
>> Tried to make a drag-and-drop workflow, eliminate some redundancies, and
>> seize
>> as much vertical space as possible for crowded modifiers:
>> http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4234/modifiersconstraintswor.png
>>
>>
>> Eclectiel.
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Wahooney <wahooney at wahooney.net>
>> To: The Blender 2.5 TaskForce <bf-taskforce25 at blender.org>
>> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 4:20:11 PM
>> Subject: [Bf-taskforce25] Modifier Layout Proposal
>>
>> Some ideas were kicked about on IRC about a few changes that could be made
>> to the way the modifier panel works.
>>
>> = Keep modifier settings in the modifier panel =
>>
>> Thomas added the beginnings of the cloth settings tonight, and although it's
>> looking cool so far it pointed out a fundamental flaw. You are adding the
>> modifier in one panel in Blender and you're changing it's settings in
>> another?! That is quite counter intuitive to a new user and most probably a
>> break in workflow for experienced users (I'm somewhere in between those
>> extremes and it's grinding my goat already ;) )
>>
>> = Compact the modifier stack =
>>
>> The modifier stack can be reduced in total size by quite a bit actually. If
>> the stack were represented as a list it can take up far less space and it
>> can allow for a helpful mechanic: The user selects a modifier from the list
>> and only those settings are shown, saving space and reducing some clutter,
>> but we can also leverage the current advantage of having multiple modifiers'
>> settings visible by allowing the user to select multiple modifiers from the
>> list. The visible modifier's settings can be drawn in the order that they
>> appear in the stack and that selection can even be locked by the user and
>> saved into the *NA (DNA,RNA I'm not sure which :P), so a user can set up
>> their environment to modify a particular object in the way that they need
>> for the given object, ie. A setup with consecutive SimpleMods and SubSurfs,
>> chances are if a user were going to animate that object the SubSurfs
>> probably won't be touched and their settings should probably be hidden.
>>
>> Note: I know that a stack item can be collapsed into a smaller size, but
>> sometimes that's not small enough ;)
>>
>> The list that holds the items can also perhaps have drag 'n drop reordering
>> (allowing the reordering buttons in the current modifier system to take the
>> boot) and display the Show/Hide buttons for Render/Viewport/Editing/Cage
>> that currently reside in the modifier settings.
>>
>> That's all from me for now.
>>
>> Keith.
>>
>>
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