[Bf-translations-dev] Material and Texture slot translation
Yain Vieyra
yaintech at yahoo.com.ar
Wed Feb 27 03:00:41 CET 2013
Sorry for my laaaate reply. I'm moving right now, and without internet.
To
clarify some points. I wasn't talking about the professional community
at all. In fact,
the professionals using blender represent a small part
of the community. There are many
many amateurs and students using the
software today, as well as professionals and
studios. But what I wanted
to expose was the importance in the "workflow" when
switching from an
app to another, from a group of people to another, from a beginner
time
to a professional one. Those who start today being just beginners, some
day could
become professionals, and they will not need to switch to a
foreing UI just "because
now I am a professional". Usability is a big
task when designing software, and in this
case we are talking about Free Software, so, community will produce documentation
regarding software
possibilities. Years ago we hadn't the possibility to translate the
whole UI, and now, with this project, we are seeing just the beginning
of extended
documentation around specific languages. Just take the
example in the industry: You
have programs in spanish using the same RGB convention, and that's because of the
importance to stay "standard"
when interacting in complex workflows. Imagine if
softwares like GIMP or Inkscape change their color models to RVA just for translation
reasons. What a pain for Graphic Designers and Artists in general! This is just
added
complexity, and what for? just to not to teach the importance of
color models? that's not
a good approach.
Well, that's my
opinion. I hope you don't take this personally. I just want to make Free
Software to have the biggest quality for world communities.
Regards.
________________________________
De: Gabriel Gazzán <gabcorreo at gmail.com>
Para: Yain Vieyra <yaintech at yahoo.com.ar>; Blender translators' discussion list <bf-translations-dev at blender.org>
Enviado: viernes, 22 de febrero de 2013 21:40
Asunto: Re: [Bf-translations-dev] Material and Texture slot translation
Hi Yain,
Yeah, I guess there will probably be tons of things that people accustomed to English language in CG software for years will hate about Blender´s UI translation.
Let me start by saying that at first I´ve gone through the same line of thinking you express here too.
RGB, Gimbal, Render, SSS and what not, all "preserved"...
But then I realised a key fact that changed my point of view on the subject: No matter what kind of effort we go through to please professional users with the words we choose, NO ONE will really use the translated UI for professional work anyway!
That´s the nature of things ...and the reasons, as I understand it, are many:
* People don´t want changes when they already know something, and this (the use of Spanish in a 3D program) is a really big change, not seen in any other truly professional software, pardon me Cinema 4D users! :)
* People who hardly know English and have gone through big pains to (also hardly) understand how to move inside a 3D program, often have learned "words" by heart and not "concepts". So their real knowledge of what´s behind a 3D program escapes them and they won´t be able to find the meaning of the translated words as a "logic translation" of the same concept (because they don´t ever learned that concept in first place).
* Also, as Internet tutorials are mostly made using the English interface of the program, if they want to be able to progress alone, they will keep the English version (and they do right about that one) to be able to watch the screen, as the talking head speaks words they don´t understand, because at least they could go through the same menus and click on the same buttons. That´s the way they´ve learned anyway... the hard way. Believe me they don´t want to re-learn the same again, just to be able to use it in Spanish, after they already passed though hell. :)
* If they want to participate in an international team for doing some work, all others are likely to use the English version anyway.
* ...and perhaps some more I can't expose now.
In effect, I´m convinced the vast majority of the people you are speaking in name of, will simply NOT be a user of the Spanish interface no matter if it says "RVA" nor if it says "RGB", if it says "Cardán" or "Gimbal" or whatever other words you care about. The strongest reasons don't lie there...
So to whom is the translation for, then?
I think this translation should really be understandable, useful and didactic for the new generations that will come fresh... the only ones that would really use it and appreciate it; kids that are not thinking of any kind of industry now. But kids that, perhaps in the future they will be engaged with 3D and become professionals thanks to a program that speaks a simple language, and that ultimately is easier to grasp.
I am right now teaching Blender classes to teens, using the current translation, and to my experience no one of them have raised that kind of concern i.e. about RVA not being "standard". They just took it naturally that R stood for Rojo, V for Verde and A for Azul. Presto! One thing less to trouble them with, let´s move ahead! :)
Of course I could be wrong, or there could be some other use cases that I´m not foreseeing right now, and I´m certainly not against talking about the subject either, but that´s the conclusion I´ve arrived at by now.
Greetings,
Gabriel
2013/2/22 Yain Vieyra <yaintech at yahoo.com.ar>
Oh! I almost lost this one.
>
>I'm not in accordance to the RGB decision. When doing this, you are killing UI usability, and this is why:
>In production, it is far more well known the RGB expression to designate a global and conventional color
>space used by millions in multiple workflows relating various softwares, like GIMP, Inkscape, Photoshop,
>Nuke, 3DMax, Maya, etc. They ALL use the RGB to refer to this color space, so, where the didactical
>thing is? It is counterproductive and confusing. When I first saw this in the Blender's UI got extremely
>confused, and then I realized I was using the Spanish UI. This was a bad choice. Every designer and artist
>I meet says that spanish translation sucks in such things. And it is just about that: the lack of CG
>conventionality. I not meaning we should use every term
untranslated, using anglicisms, but, at least, they
>should be clean an understandable, not for a minority, but for the majority of the population. Imagine if we
>translate convencional color spaces like sRGB or AdobeRGB. They are extremely conventional and
>should not be changed.
>
>
>
>Regards.
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
> De: Gabriel Gazzán <gabcorreo at gmail.com>
>Para: Blender translators' discussion list <bf-translations-dev at blender.org>
>Enviado: jueves, 14 de febrero de 2013 14:52
>Asunto: Re: [Bf-translations-dev] Material and Texture slot translation
>
>
>
>- Frame: no problem. just saying what one sees from this side of things... :) let´s wait then.
>
>- R/G/B: Yes, I know, I´ve faced this dilema earlier in the translation process. At first I left them untranslated, but later on I decided it was logic (and understandable and more didactical too) to have them translated, and is one thing less to explain when I am teaching Blender to teenagers ("why RGB and not RVA") ;) Anyway, the strings R, G and B (and also A from alpha) are used in every other place correctly, but for this place. Just pointing out that...
>
>- Clipping Options: great!
>- Vector Curves: great!
>
>thanks!
>g
>
>
>
>
>2013/2/14 Bastien Montagne <montagne29 at wanadoo.fr>
>
>Hi Gabriel,
>>
>>*Frame: Adding a context here is the thing to do, but it would
involve too much changes to do it this close to release. Actually,
I’d even wait for Lukas' new pynodes to be in trunk first! So we’ll
have to live with this for now. :)
>>*R/G/B letters: those "single" letters are currently never
translated... Not sure what to do here (I guess in spanish it would
be R/V/A, in french is should be R/V/B, etc.), whether it’s better
to keep the CG standard rgb, or to adapt it to every language?
>>*Clipping Options will be translated from now on :)
>>*Vector Curves will be translated too!
>>
>>Best regards,
>>Bastien
>>
>>
>>On 14/02/2013 06:36, Gabriel Gazzán wrote:
>>Hi Bastien:
>>>BSDF shaders are now translated. Great! :)
>>>
>>>I take the opportunity to tell you about the last issues that are
pending in the Node Editor, in case you could do something about
them too:
>>>
>>> * the string in the menu Add > Layout > Frame, should use an independent string, because the one it's using now is the same currently used for describing a ''time related'' frame in other parts of the program, while this function refers to a frame as in a ''picture frame''. In Spanish (and possibly other languages too, the two concepts use very different words to describe them, i.e. fotograma (for time related), and marco (for picture frame).
>>> * in the RGB Curves node: the R/G/B letters are not translated.
>>> * in the RGB Curves node, Clipping Options: the Use Clipping string is not translated.
>>> * the Vector Curves node name is not translated.
Thanks for listening!
>>>g
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>2013/2/13 Gabriel Gazzán <gabcorreo at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>ok, I understand now. :)
>>>>Thanks for the explanation.
>>>>
>>>>cheers,
>>>>
>>>>g
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>2013/2/13 Bastien Montagne <montagne29 at wanadoo.fr>
>>>>
>>>>Quoting my previous message:
>>>>>
>>>>>The BSDF nodes issue is fixed now (though it will have to wait next update to take effect).
>>>>>What happens is that msgids in current po files were
like "Velvet Bsdf", while the strings used for
display are more like "Velvet BSDF". Now msgids will
have the right "BSDF" strings, but you'll have to
wait for the next monday update ;)
>>>>>
>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>Bastien.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 13/02/2013 17:45, Gabriel Gazzán wrote:
>>>>>Hi Bastien:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>as of 54527 I see:
>>>>>>- the Physics buttons are now translated. :)
>>>>>>- the Cycles BSDF shaders' names (in the Node
Editor Add->Shader menu, and in node
header) are still not translated.
>>>>>>was this fixed in a newer build?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>g
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2013/2/13 Gabriel Gazzán <gabcorreo at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Great, thank you!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>g
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>2013/2/13 Bastien Montagne <montagne29 at wanadoo.fr>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi guys, and thanks for the reports! :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The BSDF nodes issue is fixed
now (though it will have to wait
next update to take effect), as
well as the physics one (though
this later one does not fully
satisfies me, at least it works
;) ).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Best regards,
>>>>>>>>Bastien
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On 13/02/2013 01:47, Gabriel
Gazzán wrote:
>>>>>>>>By the way, BSDF shader nodes' names never got translated either. ;)
>>>>>>>>>thx!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>2013/2/12 Satoshi Yamasaki <yamyam at yo.rim.or.jp>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I verified it at r54409 and r54433 with Japanese translation too.
>>>>>>>>>>Is this the side
effect you mentioned,
or another problem?
>>>>>>>>>>http://blender.jp/uploads/photos0/2082.png
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>(2013/02/13 4:46),
Gabriel Gazzán
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Bastien,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I see as of
version 54504 that
almost all of the
strings in the
Physics
>>>>>>>>>>> tab are not
showing the
translations.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> grretings,
>>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
> 2013/2/10 Gabriel Gazzán <gabcorreo at gmail.com <mailto:gabcorreo at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> well...
let's do what we
can.. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/2/10
Bastien Montagne
<montagne29 at wanadoo.fr
>>>>>>>>>>
> <mailto:montagne29 at wanadoo.fr>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Most
probably monday
evening (tomorrow)
:)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
Bastien
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On
10/02/2013 02:19,
Gabriel Gazzán
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
What's the
deadline for
commiting
translations to be
included
>>>>>>>>>>>>
in 2.66?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Special branches
from blender trunk
(r54415) update!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Translators:
most of the UI
messages defined
in py scripts
>>>>>>>>>>>>
for operators
entries now have
the correct
context! This
>>>>>>>>>>>>
means you have a
bunch of messages
(~400) now
'fuzzy',
>>>>>>>>>>>>
which you should
check (should be
rather quick, most
of
>>>>>>>>>>>>
them only need
to be unfuzzied).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also, all py UI
messages using
"formating" (like
>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Playhead: %d"
in sequencer
toolbox) were
completely wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>>
previously, now
they should be
handled correctly
(that
>>>>>>>>>>>>
about 20 new
messages).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry for doing
this that late in
release cycle, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>
unfortunately
this is a
consequence of
stupid nasty "data
>>>>>>>>>>>>
names translated
in uilists" bug...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Remember to
*NEVER* commit to
our svn's /trunk,
but *ALWAYS* to
relevant language
po file under
/branches!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Found a missing
msgid? Edit this
doc:http://goo.gl/XcWcr
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Have some
disambiguation
issue (i.e. same
english word that
should be
translated in more
than one way,
depending on the
context)? Edit
this doc:http://goo.gl/VzppJ
>>>>>>>>>>>>
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Bf-translations-dev
mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>
>> Bf-translations-dev at blender.org <mailto:Bf-translations-dev at blender.org>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-translations-dev
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>
Remember to *NEVER*
commit to our svn's
/trunk, but *ALWAYS*
to
>>>>>>>>>>>
relevant language po
file under
/branches!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Found a
missing msgid? Edit
this doc: http://goo.gl/XcWcr
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Have
some disambiguation
issue (i.e. same
english word that
>>>>>>>>>>> should
be translated in
more than one way,
depending on the
>>>>>>>>>>>
context)? Edit this
doc: http://goo.gl/VzppJ
>>>>>>>>>>>
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>
Bf-translations-dev
mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Bf-translations-dev at blender.org
>>>>>>>>>>
> <mailto:Bf-translations-dev at blender.org>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-translations-dev
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Remember to
*NEVER* commit to
our svn's /trunk,
but *ALWAYS* to
relevant language po
file under
/branches!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Found a missing
msgid? Edit this
doc: http://goo.gl/XcWcr
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Have some
disambiguation issue
(i.e. same english
word that should be
translated in more
than one way,
depending on the
context)? Edit this
doc: http://goo.gl/VzppJ
>>>>>>>>>>>
_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>
Bf-translations-dev
mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Bf-translations-dev at blender.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-translations-dev
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> このメッセージにウイルスは検出されませんでした。
>>>>>>>>>>> AVG
によってチェックされました - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> バージョン：
2013.0.2897 /
ウイルスデータベース：2639/6070 - リリース
>>>>>>>>>>> 日：2013/01/31
>>>>>>>>>>
> 内部ウイルスデータベースは最新ではありません。
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>Remember to
*NEVER* commit to
our svn's /trunk,
but *ALWAYS* to
relevant language
po file under
/branches!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Found a missing
msgid? Edit this
doc: http://goo.gl/XcWcr
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Have some
disambiguation
issue (i.e. same
english word that
should be
translated in more
than one way,
depending on the
context)? Edit
this doc: http://goo.gl/VzppJ
>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>Bf-translations-dev
mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>Bf-translations-dev at blender.org
>>>>>>>>>>http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-translations-dev
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
Remember to *NEVER* commit to our svn's /trunk, but *ALWAYS* to relevant language po file under /branches! Found a missing msgid? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/XcWcr Have some disambiguation issue (i.e. same english word that should be translated in more than one way, depending on the context)? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/VzppJ _______________________________________________
Bf-translations-dev mailing list Bf-translations-dev at blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-translations-dev
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Remember to *NEVER* commit to our
svn's /trunk, but *ALWAYS* to
relevant language po file under
/branches!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Found a missing msgid? Edit this
doc: http://goo.gl/XcWcr
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Have some disambiguation issue
(i.e. same english word that
should be translated in more than
one way, depending on the
context)? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/VzppJ
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Bf-translations-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>Bf-translations-dev at blender.org
>>>>>>>>http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-translations-dev
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
Remember to *NEVER* commit to our svn's /trunk, but *ALWAYS* to relevant language po file under /branches! Found a missing msgid? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/XcWcr Have some disambiguation issue (i.e. same english word that should be translated in more than one way, depending on the context)? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/VzppJ _______________________________________________
Bf-translations-dev mailing list Bf-translations-dev at blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-translations-dev
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Remember to *NEVER* commit to our svn's /trunk, but
*ALWAYS* to relevant language po file under /branches!
>>>>>
>>>>>Found a missing msgid? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/XcWcr
>>>>>
>>>>>Have some disambiguation issue (i.e. same english word
that should be translated in more than one way,
depending on the context)? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/VzppJ
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Bf-translations-dev mailing list
>>>>>Bf-translations-dev at blender.org
>>>>>http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-translations-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
Remember to *NEVER* commit to our svn's /trunk, but *ALWAYS* to relevant language po file under /branches! Found a missing msgid? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/XcWcr Have some disambiguation issue (i.e. same english word that should be translated in more than one way, depending on the context)? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/VzppJ _______________________________________________
Bf-translations-dev mailing list Bf-translations-dev at blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-translations-dev
>>_______________________________________________
>>Remember to *NEVER* commit to our svn's /trunk, but *ALWAYS* to relevant language po file under /branches!
>>
>>Found a missing msgid? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/XcWcr
>>
>>Have some disambiguation issue (i.e. same english word that should be translated in more than one way, depending on the context)? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/VzppJ
>>_______________________________________________
>>Bf-translations-dev mailing list
>>Bf-translations-dev at blender.org
>>http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-translations-dev
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Remember to *NEVER* commit to our svn's /trunk, but *ALWAYS* to relevant language po file under /branches!
>
>Found a missing msgid? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/XcWcr
>
>Have some disambiguation issue (i.e. same english word that should be translated in more than one way, depending on the context)? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/VzppJ
>_______________________________________________
>Bf-translations-dev mailing list
>Bf-translations-dev at blender.org
>http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-translations-dev
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Remember to *NEVER* commit to our svn's /trunk, but *ALWAYS* to relevant language po file under /branches!
>
>Found a missing msgid? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/XcWcr
>
>Have some disambiguation issue (i.e. same english word that should be translated in more than one way, depending on the context)? Edit this doc: http://goo.gl/VzppJ
>_______________________________________________
>Bf-translations-dev mailing list
>Bf-translations-dev at blender.org
>http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-translations-dev
>
>
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