[Bf-gamedev] Proposal to (try to) get better FBX support

Sun Sep 14 17:33:20 CEST 2014

Hi,

I inspected the FBX license 3 years ago, conclusions here;
http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:Ton/Autodesk_FBX_EULA

The main issue is that Autodesk just imposes limits on the sdk use cause with open source. Like:
- You have to register at Autodesk for it.
- You cannot share it. 
- You cannot use it commercially. 

If Autodesk would relicense their SDK in a way that:
- any party can distribute it freely
- users can use it for any purpose legally

We might have a starting point for considering that SDK seriously.

-Ton-

--------------------------------------------------------
Ton Roosendaal  -  ton at blender.org   -   www.blender.org
Chairman Blender Foundation - Producer Blender Institute
Entrepotdok 57A  -  1018AD Amsterdam  -  The Netherlands

On 13 Sep, 2014, at 21:12, metalliandy wrote:

> Why cant we just link users to the FBX SDK? Isn't this what the FBX FAQ 
> states people should do in cases of Opensource?
> 
>> 1.2 Can I redistribute the FBX SDK?
>> You cannot redistribute or repackage the FBX SDK without written 
>> permission from Autodesk. If you create open-source code that uses the 
>> FBX SDK, distribute your code and include a link to the Autodesk FBX 
>> website so the user can install the FBX SDK. If your code needs a 
>> specific version of the SDK you can distribute the complete .exe from 
>> the Autodesk FBX website.
> 
> http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fbx-sdk/fbx-sdk-faq/td-p/4165297
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> -Andy
> 
> On 13/09/2014 18:11, Ton Roosendaal wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> There is no way we (as in official releases on blender.org) can be using Autdesk's FBX library without violating the Autodesk license and violating the GPL at the same time.
>> 
>> The linking Octane/Vray trick won't work either for us - simply because we cannot distribute Autodesk's stuff.
>> Autodesk themselves could do it probably, and most likely an authorized plugin reseller would be able to do it too. But... you then get into very shady areas of trying to trick things that shouldn't be tricked to start with.
>> 
>> (Note: The method as being in use by Octane and Vray hasn't been verified or approved. At first sight it just looks to be on the safe side though, but it would require a careful examination).
>> 
>> And most importantly:
>> 
>> We're in the free software bizz first - that means we aim for making a tool for artists that is free for them to apply, to study, to learn from, to copy, to share and to improve. All very important virtues, in which Autodesk is not interested in - Not At All. Don't forget this!
>> 
>> -Ton-
>> 
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Ton Roosendaal  -  ton at blender.org   -   www.blender.org
>> Chairman Blender Foundation - Producer Blender Institute
>> Entrepotdok 57A  -  1018AD Amsterdam  -  The Netherlands
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 10 Sep, 2014, at 16:36, mail at smokythaklown.com wrote:
>> 
>>> yes sir!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 09-09-2014, Jeffrey wrote:
>>> 
>>>> What about something similar to how the Octane team avoided the GPL
>>>> limits? They used an external server program that piped all the render
>>>> data between Octane and Blender which avoided mixing the code.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 09/09/2014 05:48 AM,
>>>> bf-gamedev-request at blender.orgwrote:
>>>>> Send Bf-gamedev mailing list submissions to bf-gamedev at blender.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to bf-gamedev-request at blender.org You can reach the person managing the list at bf-gamedev-owner at blender.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Bf-gamedev digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Proposal to (try to) get better FBX support (Bastien Montagne) 2. Re: Proposal to (try to) get better FBX support (mail at smokythaklown.com) 3. Re: Proposal to (try to) get better FBX support (Crs Mrn) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 12:07:45 +0200 From: Bastien Montagne <montagne29 at wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: [Bf-gamedev] Proposal to (try to) get better FBX support To: bf-gamedev at blender.org Message-ID: <540ED171.5020503 at wanadoo.fr>
>>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi, And thanks for the link, unfortunately this is just a tweaked version of the work from guys at http://blenderfbx.render.jp/ . Aside from the fact that they add another intermediate step (their own .bos format), the real issue with their tool is that it uses umconv, which uses? FBX SDK! If we could use FBX SDK, things would be hundreds times simpler for us. But FBX SDK is everything but opensource, which means we cannot use (distribute) it with Blender. Cheers, Bastien Le 09/09/2014 11:47, mail at smokythaklown.coma ?crit :
>>>>>> http://darisl.wordpress.com/about/importing-fbx-files-into-blender-with-full-armaturesweights/Check with this cat working on the fbx armature import. You might already be aware of his efforts, just trying to help. On 08-09-2014, Bastien Montagne wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all, So, as everyone probably already knows, we are struggling like Hell to try to support FBX format in Blender. We already spent a **huge** amount of energy on this, for rather mitigated results so far (to summarize, roughly static object/mesh/material export works quite good, basic animation too. Camera/lamp orientation handling are buggy, and armature handling is kind of nightmare). Now, what I propose is to add a second fbx io addon (as contrib), **clearly flagged as experimental**, where we can put any dirty/bad-tested/etc. development. The point is, I want a place where I can do whatever I want, without considering things like 'good code', 'maintainable code', 'readable code', 'stable code', 'non-crashing code', etc. - and yet get it in all and every Blender release and build, so that anyone involved in FBX pipeline can easily test it, without waisting time in mails pingpong and such. Once an issue is clearly solved in bad experimental addon, we can think to 
> a
>>   good and nice way to implement it in good one. I would start to put Jens? work in this experimental version, and see whether it enhances armature handling for artists. In the mean time, I?ll try to go over all unfixed FBX reports I got in past months, and establish a list of basic, simple FBX test cases I need to try to understand those issues better. Then, I?d ask artists having 'ref FBX applications' to generate such files. Please let me know if you see something wrong in here, or something to add (and yes, I know experimental addon is dirty). Cheers, Bastien _______________________________________________ Bf-gamedev mailing list Bf-gamedev at blender.org Bf-gamedev at blender.org> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ Bf-gamedev mailing list Bf-gamedev at blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev
>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.blender.org/pipermail/bf-gamedev/attachments/20140909/e5dd400a/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 12:14:27 +0000 From: mail at smokythaklown.com Subject: Re: [Bf-gamedev] Proposal to (try to) get better FBX support To: <bf-gamedev at blender.org> Message-ID: <b503f6a15151533e9a0f4ed98c822aae at smokythaklown.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" My personal honest opinion.. about what your actually doing is devoting time for people to use autodesk/unity3d/daz&poser rather then blender/BGE/makehuman. I understand the goal, and maybe a year ago i would have even spent money for you to develop in this area.. but in the long run imagine what could have been done for blender itself with the massive amount of time spent . My theory is we make snakes work, snakes dont make us work. -dont get me wrong, alot of blender community is indeed 
> g
>>  rateful to the fbx efforts especially for jobs that clients request specific formats and applications, but overall more harm is being done to blender itself. Just my opinion, hope it alters reality in a positive way small or big. Good luck! *dont kill yourself over fbx On 09-09-2014, Bastien Montagne wrote:
>>>>>> Hi, And thanks for the
>>>>> link, unfortunately this is just a tweaked version of the work from guys at http://blenderfbx.render.jp/[6] . Aside from the fact that they add another intermediate step (their own .bos format), the real issue with their tool is that it uses umconv, which uses? FBX SDK!
>>>>>> If we could
>>>>> use FBX SDK, things would be hundreds times simpler for us. But FBX SDK is everything but opensource, which means we cannot use (distribute) it with Blender.
>>>>>> Cheers, Bastien Le 09/09/2014 11:47,
>>>>> mail at smokythaklown.com [7] a ?crit : http://darisl.wordpress.com/about/importing-fbx-files-into-blender-with-full-armaturesweights/[3]
>>>>>>> Check with this cat working on the fbx armature import. You
>>>>> might already be aware of his efforts, just trying to help.
>>>>>>> On
>>>>> 08-09-2014, Bastien Montagne wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all, So, as
>>>>> everyone probably already knows, we are struggling like Hell to
>>>>>>>> try
>>>>> to support FBX format in Blender. We already spent a **huge** amount
>>>>>>>> of energy on this, for rather mitigated results so far (to
>>>>> summarize,
>>>>>>>> roughly static object/mesh/material export works quite
>>>>> good, basic
>>>>>>>> animation too. Camera/lamp orientation handling are
>>>>> buggy, and armature
>>>>>>>> handling is kind of nightmare). Now,
>>>>> what I propose is to add a second fbx io addon (as contrib), **clearly flagged as experimental**, where we can put any dirty/bad-tested/etc. development. The point is, I want a place where I
>>>>>>>> can do whatever I want, without considering things like 'good
>>>>> code',
>>>>>>>> 'maintainable code', 'readable code', 'stable code',
>>>>> 'non-crashing
>>>>>>>> code', etc. - and yet get it in all and every Blender
>>>>> release and build,
>>>>>>>> so that anyone involved in FBX pipeline can
>>>>> easily test it, without
>>>>>>>> waisting time in mails pingpong and
>>>>> such.
>>>>>>>> Once an issue is clearly solved in bad experimental
>>>>> addon, we can think
>>>>>>>> to a good and nice way to implement it in good
>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>> I would start to put Jens' work in this experimental
>>>>> version, and see
>>>>>>>> whether it enhances armature handling for
>>>>> artists.
>>>>>>>> In the mean time, I'll try to go over all unfixed FBX
>>>>> reports I got in
>>>>>>>> past months, and establish a list of basic, simple
>>>>> FBX test cases I need
>>>>>>>> to try to understand those issues better.
>>>>> Then, I'd ask artists having
>>>>>>>> 'ref FBX applications' to generate
>>>>> such files.
>>>>>>>> Please let me know if you see something wrong in
>>>>> here, or something to
>>>>>>>> add (and yes, I know experimental addon is
>>>>> dirty).
>>>>>>>> Cheers, Bastien
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Bf-gamedev mailing
>>>>> list
>>>>>>>> Bf-gamedev at blender.org [1]
>>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev[2]_______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Bf-gamedev mailing
>>>>> list
>>>>>>> Bf-gamedev at blender.org [4]
>>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev [5] Links: ------ [1] mailto:Bf-gamedev at blender.org [2] http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev [3] http://darisl.wordpress.com/about/importing-fbx-files-into-blender-with-full-armaturesweights/ [4] mailto:Bf-gamedev at blender.org [5] http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev [6] http://blenderfbx.render.jp/ [7] mailto:mail at smokythaklown.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.blender.org/pipermail/bf-gamedev/attachments/20140909/fe25512a/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 15:48:41 +0300 From: Crs Mrn <mahri726 at gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Bf-gamedev] Proposal to (try to) get better FBX support To: bf-gamedev at blender.org Message-ID: <CABPSr7_TcABk3v9FF6qXMzxqJUbQXsOtA1UuQ4dPdkwqM82qew at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I think there might be ways to use FBX SDK in a way that
>>  could not interfere with GPL. The license says that it cannot be bundled with Blender. I guess that this could be solved by using a custom repository plugin. You open the plugin inside Blender, and it displays you a list of things you could download. On this list, there could be the FBX plugin made using FBX SDK. In order to shield the SDK source from GPL, a intermediary piece of code might be needed. When you firstly start Blender, that download plugin downloads the FBX plugin automaticly, for all users. I think there could be ways to dodge GPL in order to use the official FBX SDK. ?n data de 09.09.2014 15:14, <mail at smokythaklown.com> a scris:
>>>>>> My personal honest opinion.. about what your actually doing is devoting time for people to use autodesk/unity3d/daz&poser rather then blender/BGE/makehuman. I understand the goal, and maybe a year ago i would have even spent money for you to develop in this area.. but in the long run imagine what could have been done for blender itself with the massive amount of time spent . My theory is we make snakes work, snakes dont make us work. -dont get me wrong, alot of blender community is indeed grateful to the fbx efforts especially for jobs that clients request specific formats and applications, but overall more harm is being done to blender itself. Just my opinion, hope it alters reality in a positive way small or big. Good luck! *dont kill yourself over fbx On 09-09-2014, Bastien Montagne wrote: Hi, And thanks for the link, unfortunately this is just a tweaked version of the work from guys at http://blenderfbx.render.jp/ . Aside from the fact that they add another intermed
> i
>>  ate step (their own .bos format), the real issue with their tool is that it uses umconv, which uses? FBX SDK! If we could use FBX SDK, things would be hundreds times simpler for us. But FBX SDK is everything but opensource, which means we cannot use (distribute) it with Blender. Cheers, Bastien Le 09/09/2014 11:47, mail at smokythaklown.com a ?crit : http://darisl.wordpress.com/about/importing-fbx-files-into-blender-with-full-armaturesweights/ Check with this cat working on the fbx armature import. You might already be aware of his efforts, just trying to help. On 08-09-2014, Bastien Montagne wrote: Hi all, So, as everyone probably already knows, we are struggling like Hell to try to support FBX format in Blender. We already spent a **huge** amount of energy on this, for rather mitigated results so far (to summarize, roughly static object/mesh/material export works quite good, basic animation too. Camera/lamp orientation handling are buggy, and armature handling is kind of n
> igh
>>  tmare). Now, what I propose is to add a second fbx io addon (as contrib), **clearly flagged as experimental**, where we can put any dirty/bad-tested/etc. development. The point is, I want a place where I can do whatever I want, without considering things like 'good code', 'maintainable code', 'readable code', 'stable code', 'non-crashing code', etc. - and yet get it in all and every Blender release and build, so that anyone involved in FBX pipeline can easily test it, without waisting time in mails pingpong and such. Once an issue is clearly solved in bad experimental addon, we can think to a good and nice way to implement it in good one. I would start to put Jens? work in this experimental version, and see whether it enhances armature handling for artists. In the mean time, I?ll try to go over all unfixed FBX reports I got in past months, and establish a list of basic, simple FBX test cases I need to try to understand those issues better. Then, I?d ask artists having 're
> f F
>>  BX applications' to generate such files. Please let me know if you see something wrong in here, or something to add (and yes, I know experimental addon is dirty). Cheers, Bastien _______________________________________________ Bf-gamedev mailing listBf-gamedev at blender.orghttp://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev _______________________________________________ Bf-gamedev mailing listBf-gamedev at blender.orghttp://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev _______________________________________________ Bf-gamedev mailing list Bf-gamedev at blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev
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