[Bf-committers] Handling of user data.

[Ray Molenkamp]

I don't think there's any disagreement between me and bastien
we both agree it's a problem that just isn't getting the
attention it deserves. The disagreement is with the people who
set the priorities.

Most of the priories are seemingly set by the needs of the
blender studio, they have learned a long long time ago, how
to "not lose data" to the point it has seemingly become a
out of sight out of heart style problem.

My somewhat cheeky prod on the mailing list was meant as
a reminder, deleting the users data without their consent
isn't OK, has never been OK, will never be OK, and we should
be fixing it rather than waving it away going "it's fiiine,
work on this instead" it's very much not "fine"  

--Ray



On 2022-05-10 2:12 p.m., Zack Brown via Bf-committers wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm also curious about this issue. It seems like Ray is giving one side of
> the argument, but I'm not clear on the other side. This can't simply be a
> debate between one group that is in favor of destroying user data, and
> another group that opposes it.
>
> Looking at the developer task, it seems like one concern is that any
> solution to the problem would need to take account of workflow issues, so
> that production workflows won't be slowed down. I'd like to hear an example
> of a production workflow that relies on blender's current behavior, and how
> it might be slowed down if the data were simply not deleted instead.
>
> There definitely seems to be something to what Ray says, about saving users
> from a data-loss baptism of fire. And there also seems to be something to
> what Bastien says, about various big projects that currently have a higher
> priority than fixing a standard blender behavior that has always been this
> way. I know there are a lot of features I eagerly look forward to, more
> than fixes for some of the known misfeatures. But I also know that I got
> bit by the inexplicable data-loss issue myself at first, and it was a pain
> in the butt.
>
> Could someone take a stab at explaining what this debate really is about,
> in such a way that both sides would feel fairly represented? All I know
> right now is that there's a disagreement about something that currently
> feels over my head.
>
> Be well,
> Zack
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 9:05 PM Ray Molenkamp via Bf-committers <
> bf-committers at blender.org> wrote:
>
>> That task is over 3 years old though, it mostly reconfirms
>> the notion that the people who set the priorities just
>> don't see silently destroying end user data being a problem.
>>
>> I hope this short thread serves as a wake-up call and this
>> and the other core improvements you mentioned will be made
>> more of a priority and time will actually be allocated for
>> it in the next release cycle.
>>
>> But I'm not getting my hopes up here.
>>
>> --Ray
>> On 2022-05-10 12:54 a.m., Bastien Montagne via Bf-committers wrote:
>>> Hi Ray,
>>>
>>> We already have a task to address this issue:
>>>
>>> https://developer.blender.org/T61209
>>>
>>> But this needs time to be properly handled, and these days we spend
>> everything besides regular maintenance on 'big projects', so... this one
>> and several other relatively small core improvements and fixes keep being
>> delayed from one release to the other.
>>> -- Bastien
>>>
>>> On 5/9/22 21:12, Ray Molenkamp via Bf-committers wrote:
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> It's been years [1] (2018) since I last was rather
>>>> vocal on this subject, but how is this [2] still
>>>> happening? "Yes, blender deleted your data (and silently
>>>> at that), that means it's working correctly!" cannot
>>>> possibly be the best we can do, is it?
>>>>
>>>> While I'm excited with all the directions blender
>>>> development is currently going, it's utterly depressing that
>>>> users are still losing data on a daily basis because
>>>> we can't quite get the basics right like "do not delete the
>>>> users data without their consent".
>>>>
>>>> These are *NOT* isolated incidents [3]. Losing your
>>>> data and learning about "the fake user" shouldn't be
>>>> a right of passage to become "a real blender user".
>>>> Users shouldn't be silently *losing* data in an operation
>>>> ironically called *saving*. That's crazy, no other
>>>> application behaves like this!
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I know this is how we have always done it. No,
>>>> this is not OK, never was.
>>>>   Ton: Please make protecting the user’s data a
>>>> priority, as it doesn’t seem this will happen otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> --Ray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://devtalk.blender.org/t/oh-no/505/2
>>>> [2] https://developer.blender.org/T97968
>>>> [3] https://devtalk.blender.org/t/more/22715
>>>>
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