[Bf-interface] Workflow workshop, agenda topics and preparations

Fri Nov 25 04:19:19 CET 2016

Hey all!

What with my unplanned absence, I thought I’d write up a few of my key thoughts (and hopes) for focus during the workflow sprint. I have three main topics that I’d love to see explored:

Tool Workflow as it relates to utilizing tools from hotkeys, menus, and toolbars
Universal (simplified) keymap with an emphasis on selection + transformation that leaves room for customization

As a final thought: what can we remove? What’s no longer needed, redundant, or otherwise poorly implemented that’s not doing anyone any good?

-- 
Jonathan Williamson

On November 23, 2016 at 9:08:39 AM, Julian Eisel (eiseljulian at gmail.com) wrote:

Hi all,

I'm a bit late to the party but here are my two cents.

-- The Big Picture --
While I agree that we should look at the big picture first, I have the
feeling that one of the main issues the UI team had in the past is
that we rarely got further than agreeing on abstract levels. In other
words, I don't think the issue is in finding and agreeing on the big
picture(s), but in a lack of concrete ideas and the needed consensus
to work towards them. It's good if we all agree on high-level designs,
however if we want to actually realize these we need to be more
concrete.
So yes, let's start by looking at the big picture, but I strongly
suggest that the focus of our short meetup is on finding/organizing
actual solutions for this. Something in-between all the small details
and abstract ideas.

-- Schedule --
Ton's proposal is pretty much fine with me. I think the most important
thing on day one is that we discuss the big picture and compile a list
of topics to discuss during days 2 & 3. I also have a (not too small)
list of things I'd like to cover during the workshop. It would need
quite some clarification so I won't add it here ;)

Looking forward to a bunch of great & productive days!

Cheers,
- Julian -

On 20 November 2016 at 16:07, Jonathan Williamson <jonathan at cgcookie.com> wrote:
> Focusing on the big picture and working within our limited resources is
> going to be essential. The other thing is context, keeping in mind who this
> work is being done for.
>
> It's going to be really easy to get wrapped up and distracted by detailed
> specifics, particularly since we all have a pet-list of features and changes
> we'd like for ourselves. Staying focused on the broader goals will be key.
>
> --
> Jonathan Williamson
>
> On November 20, 2016 at 7:24:26 AM, Ton Roosendaal (ton at blender.org) wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Thanks for the feedback. I think we should settle on the big picture as
>> fast as possible. We shouldn't spend 3 days talking, but have enough periods
>> of work in-between in small groups or alone - to tackle issues we found and
>> then present later on.
>>
>> The general structure for the first day should be as much as possible
>> based on agreeing on the outcome of 3 days.
>>
>> First day we should try to settle on the big picture:
>>
>> - Short intro for everyone to speak up, make sure our three days will
>> cover all topics well.
>> - Wrap up of 2.5 project; what's good and what's there to be improved
>> - Analysis of current issues in widest sense - and what would "Workflow"
>> mean for people in general.
>> - Re-establish core values and design specs for Blender. (using 2.5
>> checklist).
>> - Verify the practical considerations and focus - we have to accept we
>> have limited resources. Match our ambitions with competences, so we get a
>> feasible project.
>> - During the day we can maintain a list of discussion topics on which we
>> don't easily settle, or which we want to spend more time on. That can help
>> defining the agendas for days 2 and 3.
>> - But, clearly define what we want to achieve in days 2 and 3. That
>> includes design proposals, layouts, mockups, APIs, etc.
>>
>> I want to emphasis that the "2.8 workflow" project is not about a complete
>> Blender redesign, we can't drop or revise all paradigms and start over from
>> scratch. For that we simply don't have the time or resources. I think
>> everyone who attends the workshop knows that, but it's always good repeat
>> it. :)
>>
>> Best result for me would be if we can achieve:
>> - A very good understanding and agreement on Blender's limits and
>> possibilities, which will keep design and projects focused.
>> - A number of simple and feasible design decisions that will help current
>> projects, and/or that can be added easily
>> - A good procedure in place to validate future proposals and empower teams
>> to make decisions.
>> - Let's do something with a result we can show within the course of 2017!
>>
>> Laters,
>>
>> -Ton-
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Ton Roosendaal - ton at blender.org - www.blender.org
>> Chairman Blender Foundation, Director Blender Institute
>> Entrepotdok 57A, 1018 AD, Amsterdam, the Netherlands
>>
>> On 18 Nov 2016, at 14:20, Paweł Łyczkowski <pawellyczkowski at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> My take on agenda could look like:
>>
>> 1st day: Since UI in big part visual, and during discussions it's
>> difficult to show how ideas work (one has to describe), I would make the
>> first day talks with access to the projector. Topic of talks would be
>> directions one wants to push. There's 9 participants, so there should be
>> enough time for 1h per participants - 45 min talk, 15 min
>> questions/clarification/quick opinions. That is - if everyone participating
>> requests a talk (by mail, during next week).
>>
>> That would be a warmup day, with time between it and the 2nd day to digest
>> the ideas.
>>
>> 2nd day: Discussion day. Since UI talk can go off the rails very quickly
>> the discussion should go topic by topic, from a predefined list. So,
>> something like Bastien proposed. That's my rough take:
>>
>> - Paradigms and general direction
>> - Blender 101
>> - Discoverability and help (tuts/tooltips/documentation)
>> - Screen layout and general GUI
>> - Layer Manager [2] and Outliner
>> - Modifier list [6]
>> - Brecht Bar [3]
>> - Screen Layouts, editing modes and tabs (including Topbar Tabs [5])
>> - Sidebars (customizing sidebars)
>> - General customization (hiding parts of GUI?)
>> - Display Settings - UI vs new viewport
>> - Workflow
>> - Data handling (fake user and data loss, asset management)
>> - Multi-mesh editing/UV mapping
>> - Setting properties of multiple objects
>> - Container objects [4]
>> - UDIM
>> - Texture Painting (layers?)
>> - Snapping and Proportional Editing
>> - How operators work, how tools work [1]
>> - Interaction
>> - Keymap, especialy keymap core (mouse buttons, navigation, selection)
>> - Keymap editor and it's issues
>> - Widgets
>> - Pies
>> - Sticky Keys
>> - Add-ons
>> - Code related discussion
>>
>> And, most important:
>> - Priority (It's probably inevitable that there will be more ideas than
>> 2.8 can handle. We should decide on a couple of items that are top priority
>> then)
>>
>> 3rd day: Decisions announced by module owners and working on concrete
>> solutions (or at least drafts). Here breaking into groups would be good I
>> suppose, with at least one dev (that can mock up prototypes in realtime
>> maybe?) per group.
>>
>> Let me know what you guys think.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Paweł Łyczkowski
>>
>> Additional reading:
>> [1] -
>> https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Proposals/UI/Tools_Workflow and
>> https://developer.blender.org/T37554 - Tools Workflow by William Reynish,
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ScPMbHv8WRCU2znB7IU2l-W9hH-NLs5weQKLkjqmgpA/edit#heading=h.xira9p9pbv78
>> - Adding Tool Mode to Operators by me
>> [2] - https://developer.blender.org/T38384 - Layer Manager proposal by
>> me. https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:Julianeisel/GSoC-2016/UI_Design
>> - Julian's Layer Manager doc
>> [3] -
>> https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Proposals/UI/Top_Bar_Reshuffle
>> Brecht Bar by Brecht
>> [4] -
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ScPMbHv8WRCU2znB7IU2l-W9hH-NLs5weQKLkjqmgpA/edit#heading=h.k20w9k3djv7c
>> - A Container type object by me.
>> [5] - https://developer.blender.org/T39835 Topbar Tabs by Julian
>> [6] - https://developer.blender.org/T38178 Modifier List
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:58 AM Bastien Montagne <montagne29 at wanadoo.fr>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Disclaimer: I’m starting fresh from initial mail again, since I’ve seen
>>> mails going already in way to much details, imho (Sebastian… ;) ). My
>>> point being: topic is way to broad and complex to be discussed in a
>>> single thread, would make it impossible to follow. So I propose to keep
>>> this thread only for the topics definition, and planning/agenda (in
>>> other words, the schedule of the workshop). For further detailed
>>> discussion of a topic or another (like, keymap, various types of
>>> customizations, 101, etc.), please start new (or use existing) threads.
>>>
>>> So, here is first draft of how I’d see things for the weekend:
>>>
>>> - Day I & II: Tackle each topic, from both sides:
>>> -- "Usability" side: Reconfirm existing UI/UX paradigms, check if
>>> we need to make some of them evolve, and define new needed ones.
>>> -- "Technical" side: Based on designs laid out by usability
>>> discussions, check what needs to be changed/extended/added to our UI/WM
>>> code (not thinking about tiny implementation details here of course).
>>> - Day III: Would keep it 'empty', can think of several ways to use it:
>>> -- Potentially extra time to finish discussion on some topics if we
>>> ran out of time in first two days.
>>> -- Handle unforeseen topics, questions etc. that may have arose
>>> during workshop.
>>> -- Maybe spread in smaller groups to refine work on some specific
>>> topics.
>>> -- Write/review first draft of final reports (though most of this
>>> work should be done in days after workshop, of course)?
>>> -- ...
>>>
>>> Some more organizational notes/questions (we do not want to be too much
>>> formal, but think agreeing on that could be useful and save time):
>>>
>>> - Do we want to work in a single big group, or several smaller
>>> groups? (personally, I would say one single group for first two days,
>>> imho it’s important that everyone has minimal knowledge of all topics'
>>> discussion, even if not directly interested to actually work on it. Then
>>> more freedom for the last day… ;) )
>>> -- If we go for several smaller groups, we could agree on the "at
>>> least one artist and one dev in each group" rule?
>>> - Do we accept talk? If yes, how long should they be at most?
>>> (personally, would keep them short, maybe as introduction of some
>>> topics, think we mostly need lots of discussion to agree on designs)
>>> - ...
>>>
>>> And now, the topics (I put them in a hierarchy tree, that’s obviously
>>> somewhat subjective, also probably have forgotten many points… and it
>>> does not mean branches are not related to each other!):
>>>
>>> - UI/UX
>>> -- Do we need new UI widgets? Extend/Rework some existing ones?
>>> (also thinking about proposed talk from Paweł, here)
>>> -- Do we need to extend or modify some interactions with operators
>>> (modal ones? heavy computations ones?)?
>>> -- Review recent new UI features (custom manipulators and pies
>>> mainly), how to use them in “default” Blender and not only as optional
>>> new things?
>>> -- ...
>>> - Customization
>>> -- Do we agree on the need to have a place in UI where artists can
>>> dump random settings and operators?
>>> --- If yes, how to do it (position? with tabs? with panels?
>>> floating or not? etc.)?
>>> -- Make macro operators part of customization possibilities?
>>> -- ...
>>> - Workflows
>>> -- What is part of/defines a workflow?
>>> --- keymaps?
>>> --- UI items (panels, menus, ...) - i.e., exposed/visible tools
>>> and data/settings?
>>> --- Custom manipulators?
>>> --- Screen layout?
>>> --- Visualization settings (like different draw modes in
>>> viewport…)?
>>> -- Do we replace (mostly viewport) modes (edit, sculpt, paint etc.)
>>> by workflows?
>>> -- Do we reuse/extend existing workspaces (screens) feature as
>>> workflows, or do we keep them separated? Or do we keep workflows inside
>>> single space area?
>>> -- ...
>>> - Blender 101
>>> -- I see it as a specific workflow, roughly, should we use it as a
>>> kind of guinea pig of workflow project?
>>> -- ...
>>> - Code-related questions
>>> -- Is custom spaces part of/needed for this project (custom spaces
>>> would be definable from py, similar to how panels or UIList work
>>> currently)?
>>> -- Do we need to rework the notifications system?
>>> -- ...
>>>
>>> Again, this is own first draft (based on previous mails and own
>>> knowledge), most likely forgot or overseen many things… You are more
>>> than welcome to add, move, remove, comment, suggest, whatever (even to
>>> say this is complete piece of trash ;) )… But please, let’s keep this
>>> thread onto agreeing on organization/agenda/topics points, and *not*
>>> about detailed topics' content discussion/proposal/etc., really think we
>>> should keep this into separated threads (like the one already started by
>>> Mike regarding Blender 101).
>>>
>>> Also, we may end with too much for three days, we can always trim down
>>> later and focus on biggest/most important topics first, leaving smaller
>>> ones for online discussion, if needed.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Bastien
>>>
>>> Le 06/11/2016 à 18:02, Ton Roosendaal a écrit :
>>> > Hi all,
>>> >
>>> > The workshop will be here in Blender Institute, 25-27 November.
>>> > Confirmed participants are:
>>> >
>>> > - Jonathan Williamson
>>> > - Pablo Vazquez
>>> > - Julian Eisel
>>> > - Paweł Łyczkowski
>>> > - Daniel Lara
>>> > - Sebastian Koenig
>>> > - Bastien Montagne
>>> > - Brecht van Lommel
>>> > - Mike Pan
>>> >
>>> > I'm very happy to confirm that we'll get additional development support
>>> > from Aleph Objects (Lulzbot 3D printer) to hire people for coding and
>>> > designing work. Work would be on '2.8 workflow' in general, but result
>>> > should lead to a release-compatible Blender version that's configured to be
>>> > suitable for kids or occasional users to make 3d prints. That's the "101
>>> > project" Mike Pan will be working on.
>>> >
>>> > In the coming weeks we should check on the planning for the workshop
>>> > days, the agenda, and do a lot of preparations. Hopefully we can discuss and
>>> > review existing proposals as much as possible.
>>> >
>>> > Let's throw random ideas in this week, then I come with a more
>>> > structured proposal by end of week.
>>> > OK?
>>> >
>>> > Laters,
>>> >
>>> > -Ton-
>>> >
>>> > --------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Ton Roosendaal - ton at blender.org - www.blender.org
>>> > Chairman Blender Foundation, Director Blender Institute
>>> > Entrepotdok 57A, 1018 AD, Amsterdam, the Netherlands
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Bf-interface mailing list
>>> > Bf-interface at blender.org
>>> > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-interface
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bf-interface mailing list
>>> Bf-interface at blender.org
>>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-interface
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bf-interface mailing list
>> Bf-interface at blender.org
>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-interface
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bf-interface mailing list
>> Bf-interface at blender.org
>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-interface
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bf-interface mailing list
> Bf-interface at blender.org
> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-interface
>
_______________________________________________
Bf-interface mailing list
Bf-interface at blender.org
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-interface
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.blender.org/pipermail/bf-interface/attachments/20161124/55420722/attachment-0001.htm 