[Bf-funboard] Modernizing the Video Sequencer Editor UI

Fri Feb 28 01:49:17 CET 2014

Whilst the interface update is overdue, I think better integration of the
vse in the compositing / animation work flow should probably come first.
Being able to round trip media from your edit to the compositor would
impact on the way we interact with vse strip properties.

Being able to reference camera timecode and other 3d scene's timecode would
be very usefull but is not available now.
On 21 Feb 2014 18:45, "David McSween" <3pointedit at gmail.com> wrote:

> >Is there a GSoc project specifically to
> >improve the Sequencer?
>
> Yes there was
> http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:AlexK/Gsoc2013/scheduler
> Sadly it did not complete, I think that the student was trying to achieve
> architecture rewrite for media handling. Instead of improving or updating
> the current system.
> There were high hopes and I'm sure that the student fully expected to at
> least achieve his goals too. But the memory handling and event restructure
> needed more time and a depsgraph I expect
> http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:Ton/Depsgraph_2012
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 6:22 PM, Paulo José Amaro <pauloup at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> David, thank you so much for the great clarification of the issue. The
>> messages from Ton are much better than what I could imagine, even with
>> some reservation.
>> One thing is not clear to me: Is there a GSoc project specifically to
>> improve the Sequencer?
>>
>> Once again, thank you so much!
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:58 AM, David McSween <3pointedit at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Paulo,
>> > Yes this makes me sad too. There are some good addons that help to
>> > re-create the in point / out point operation of a real video editor
>> >
>> >
>> http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?264676-Sequencer-Addon-Trim-Videos-before-adding-them-to-the-Timeline-(In-and-Outpoints)&p=2201070#post2201070
>> > but there is no access to meta data or asset compilation (key word lists
>> > etc.), so you could re-use media or group media into collections.
>> >
>> > This is because Ton prefers to keep Blender as a function specific
>> > application. That is it should create or composite 3D animations only.
>> here
>> > are his thoughts on the Sequencer...
>> >
>> > http://lists.blender.org/pipermail/soc-2013-dev/2013-July/000127.html
>> >
>> > " Requirements:
>> >
>> > - Above all: Sequencer is for real-time editing of shots. It is a
>> > Blender tool, well working with rest of Blender, for Blender artists
>> > to manage their work. We don't make a generic video editor."
>> >
>> > Remember this from Ton last year, it is a comprehensive look at what
>> > Blender should do...
>> > http://code.blender.org/index.php/2013/10/redefining-blender/
>> >
>> > "The official Blender Foundation goal is worded like this:
>> >
>> > *Provide individual artists and small teams with a complete, free and
>> open
>> > source 3D creation pipeline.*
>> >
>> > In this simple sentence a couple of crucial focus points come together.
>> >
>> >    - Artists and teams:
>> >    We work for people who consider themselves artist - and who work on
>> >    creating 3D individually or in small teams together. The definition
>> for
>> >    "artist" can be taken quite wide - to include engineers, product
>> > designers,
>> >    architects or scientists. But each of them can be considered to have
>> a
>> >    serious interest in working with 3D software to create something
>> > related to
>> >    that interest.
>> >    "Blender is for artists" also means that's it not a programming API
>> or
>> >    scripting environment, these are secondary to this goal.
>> >    - Complete 3D creation:
>> >    Blender should work for making finished products, without
>> requirement to
>> >    purchase or run other programs. Its output should satisfy the users
>> >    sufficiently to share their work in public or market it as part of a
>> > living.
>> >    - Pipeline:
>> >    We are aware of how CG production works (for animation, film, vfx,
>> >    games) and we want Blender to work sufficiently in each and every
>> > aspect of
>> >    such creation pipelines. This to to make complex creations possible
>> and
>> > to
>> >    enable people working together.
>> >    - Free and open source:
>> >    And not only should Blender be a complete production system, we even
>> >    want this to be free and open source!
>> >
>> > "
>> > and here
>> >
>> http://lists.blender.org/pipermail/bf-committers/2013-January/038991.html
>> >
>> > "By design (and focus for work) the Sequencer is meant for Blender
>> > projects, to manage own Blender renders efficiently. Input files are
>> > typically openexrs or pngs, and export to whatever (mmovie) format you
>> > like.
>> >
>> > Blender Sequencer just isn't a generic multi-purpose video editor
>> > system. Not by design, and impossible to manage with our limited
>> > resources. The more narrow we can keep our Sequencer, the better it
>> > will work. :)
>> >
>> >
>> > -Ton-"
>> >
>> > It seems that Blender would be a 'down-stream' tool, that should come
>> after
>> > editorial/story development.
>> >
>> > But...
>> >
>> > ...the Open Movies 'have' used the VSE to layout storyboards against
>> voice
>> > acting (sound clips) and music score. This is editorial I think? However
>> > they 'did not' use video clips, instead they use still images that are
>> > replaced with rendered art as the production goes on, and some audio
>> clips.
>> >
>> > In this way "prototyping" is testing a movie with storyboard panels in
>> the
>> > VSE.
>> > While "assemblage" or montage of renders is what happens at the end of a
>> > job. That is, you collect all the scenes/shots that you have rendered
>> and
>> > place them in order, trimming the elements that you don't require.
>> >
>> > Paulo I think that your proposal fits these requirements PERFECTLY ;)
>> >  Unfortunately none of the media handling you would expect in a video
>> > editor, fits the Blender goals :(
>> >
>> > So there will be:
>> >
>> > -NO clip bins internally
>> >
>> > -NO clip metadata like keywords or notes
>> >
>> > -NO source preview/skimmer
>> >
>> > -NO marking of source in-points and timeline in-points, that is
>> > pre-trimming before the edit
>> >
>> > -NO audio mixing tools like basic EQ or assigned track output
>> >
>> > -NO improved speed effects like Optical Flow or frame blending
>> >
>> > -NO VSE to Compositor conform, that is no way to round trip edited VSE
>> > clips to compositor for applying effects (there is an addon that tries).
>> >
>> > -NO EDL or XML export/import of edited sequences (potential solution to
>> > Compositor roundtrip problem).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > They just aren't suitable it seems.
>> >
>> > P.S.
>> > This last bf mailing list email gives me some hope...
>> > http://lists.blender.org/pipermail/bf-committers/2013-June/041070.html
>> >
>> > "For example: the Sequencer code now can get a full makeover without
>> > breaking the rest of Blender. It's highly needed to do that.
>> >
>> > Solutions for having tracking/compositing/sequencer work together are
>> > there too. What I'd like to explore is some kindof image-depsgraph. A
>> > user then can manage image dependencies in Blender like: render to
>> > image, which gets used as a texture in other render, which goes to
>> > compositor, which goes into a VSE, etc etc.
>> >
>> > "
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > David
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Paulo José Amaro <pauloup at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi David,
>> > >
>> > > Thank you very much for presenting me to this patch and the addon.
>> This
>> > > feature is something that I ever desired to have in VSE and it
>> certainly
>> > > should be included in Blender natively. I hope to see this to gain
>> > > attention from more people.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks for the links also. I already knew them, but still so they are
>> > good
>> > > references to be read more than once. Before writing my ideas I
>> checked
>> > if
>> > > there was something already in the wiki, but I had found nothing
>> related
>> > to
>> > > VSE. Is there any link where I could find more info about the mould
>> > you've
>> > > cited?
>> > >
>> > > Or may you explain me more about the implications of "keep it as a
>> tool
>> > for
>> > > "assemblage of rendered scenes" or for "prototyping storyboards". This
>> > > description seems not much exciting, but more like a advice to invest
>> not
>> > > much effort on VSE as a video edition tool. This would make me sad,
>> > because
>> > > Blender is really the most powerful, flexible and stable free tool I
>> > > already worked with video. :-(
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 11:56 PM, David McSween <3pointedit at gmail.com
>> > > >wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > And here is the UI team Project Page
>> > > > https://developer.blender.org/project/view/12/
>> > > >
>> > > > While this is the UI proposals page
>> > > > http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Proposals/UI
>> > > >
>> > > > I guess your well thought out suggestions should go there. But I do
>> > hope
>> > > > you get more feedback here of course.
>> > > >
>> > > > David
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 12:52 PM, David McSween <
>> 3pointedit at gmail.com
>> > > > >wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Paulo, have you also seen this patch from Jehan
>> > > > > https://developer.blender.org/T34064
>> > > > >
>> > > > > It provides a new way to interact with the media in the preview
>> > window
>> > > > > (much like the translate addon does). Allowing the user to scale
>> and
>> > > crop
>> > > > > dynamically. Sadly I don't have the resources to build my own
>> Blender
>> > > > with
>> > > > > patches. Taken together, your UI concepts and the interaction
>> patch
>> > > would
>> > > > > really improve the VSE without breaking the BF approved mould.
>> That
>> > is
>> > > > the
>> > > > > preference to keep it as a tool for "assemblage of rendered
>> scenes"
>> > or
>> > > > for
>> > > > > "prototyping storyboards".
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Paulo José Amaro <
>> pauloup at gmail.com
>> > > > >wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> Hi,
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> I'm Paulo Jose, from Brazil, and I want to share some ideas and
>> > > > >> suggestions
>> > > > >> about the Video Sequencer Editor's user interface.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> I sent my first message to bf-commiters mails list and had very
>> good
>> > > > >> suggestions there. Then someone told me that here could be a
>> better
>> > > > place
>> > > > >> to discuss this. So I'm copying my message here.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> I'm being a Blender user for many years and the main
>> functionality I
>> > > use
>> > > > >> is
>> > > > >> the VSE. Along the years, I used many tools, from VirtualDub to
>> > Adobe
>> > > > >> Premiere. Blender is by far the most complete and powerful open
>> > source
>> > > > >> software to work with, its flexibility is the keyword here. But
>> > there
>> > > > are
>> > > > >> some areas of VSE that still can be improved.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Taking advantage of the new Tabs feature which is being
>> implemented
>> > in
>> > > > >> Blender UI and the current moving to reorganizing things in a
>> better
>> > > > way,
>> > > > >> I
>> > > > >> put my efforts to study how to improve Blender's VSE UI.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> In the past days I prepared a little Demo of a modernized UI for
>> > VSE,
>> > > > made
>> > > > >> with HTML+CSS+JS to simulate the Blender UI and some of its
>> > behavior.
>> > > > It's
>> > > > >> not a "lets throw everything away", but most like "lets move
>> these
>> > > > options
>> > > > >> to here, those to there". The Demo includes a step by step guide
>> to
>> > > > every
>> > > > >> change, explaining my motivation about them, so I don't get
>> longer
>> > in
>> > > > this
>> > > > >> mail.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> You can access it here: Blender Sequencer Video Editor -
>> > > > >> Demo<
>> > > > >>
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5107072/blender-vse-2014/sequencer.html
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> The changes are restrict to Properties Panel. You can compare it
>> > with
>> > > > the
>> > > > >> current UI by clicking on "How was this screen" button. There are
>> > some
>> > > > few
>> > > > >> new features, but most of them are already in another parts of
>> > Blender
>> > > > and
>> > > > >> they are not out of scope.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> I would like very much to know your opinion. And I'll keep to
>> work
>> > on
>> > > > this
>> > > > >> based on your feedback. My intent is to try to modernize VSE,
>> > starting
>> > > > by
>> > > > >> the Properties Panel, then going to menus and so on.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> I'm not a developer, but I put myself available to help with
>> design
>> > > > tasks
>> > > > >> and maybe coding too if needed. I'm experienced with using
>> Inkscape,
>> > > > >> coding
>> > > > >> with Python and a little of C. I just need some guidance.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> I'm sorry for any misspelling, English is not my main language,
>> but
>> > I
>> > > > love
>> > > > >> to learn! I hope to get familiar with this mail listing and
>> actively
>> > > > >> participate of it. :-)
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Someone said that some development may be happening already to
>> VSE.
>> > I
>> > > > did
>> > > > >> know nothing about it, and I would like to know more and to get
>> > > > involved,
>> > > > >> if it's possible. I'm open to adapt my proposal to the current
>> > > > >> development,
>> > > > >> or help some another way you may think I should.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Thank you for your time and I hope my efforts may be useful
>> somehow.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Cheers,
>> > > > >> ~Paulo
>> > > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > > >> Bf-funboard mailing list
>> > > > >> Bf-funboard at blender.org
>> > > > >> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Bf-funboard mailing list
>> > > > Bf-funboard at blender.org
>> > > > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > *Paulo José O. Amaro*
>> > > *Estudante na UFSJ-MG-Brazil. Blogueiro na CasaTwain.com*
>> > > *Freelancer* em artes gráficas, edição de vídeo, modelagem 3D,
>> interfaces
>> > > web, CSS3, HTML5, Javascript, Wordpress e padrões web.
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Bf-funboard mailing list
>> > > Bf-funboard at blender.org
>> > > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Bf-funboard mailing list
>> > Bf-funboard at blender.org
>> > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Paulo José O. Amaro*
>> *Estudante na UFSJ-MG-Brazil. Blogueiro na CasaTwain.com*
>> *Freelancer* em artes gráficas, edição de vídeo, modelagem 3D, interfaces
>> web, CSS3, HTML5, Javascript, Wordpress e padrões web.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bf-funboard mailing list
>> Bf-funboard at blender.org
>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>>
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