[Bf-funboard] UI talk + session at bconf

Nathan Vegdahl cessen at cessen.com
Tue Sep 24 19:48:32 CEST 2013

>> Speaking of standards - LMB to select, LMB + shift to add to selection,
>> LMB + alt to remove from selection, and RMB for menu would be nice. But
>> that's a bit off-topic.
> You're going to provoke holy wars :)

Ha ha.  Well, we should at least be consistent.  Blender in the
default setup currently uses both RMB _and_ LMB for selection,
depending on interface (e.g. outliner, animation channels, property
lists, etc. are LMB select, but 3d view, fcurves, etc. are RMB select,
and the node editor allows either), which is a pretty silly state of
affairs.  We should settle on one, and use it everywhere, keeping
exceptions to a bare minimum.


On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Bassam Kurdali <bassam at urchn.org> wrote:
> I think this is an exhausting way to have a discussion. There are a lot
> of good points here but they should have seperate threads, not a grab
> bag of 'some thoughts, not thought through'.
> Some of these are great, some are probably getting lost in the noise. My
> comments below mark when I got too tired to read ;)
> On Mon, 2013-09-23 at 12:33 +0200, Paweł Łyczkowski wrote:
>> Some of my thoughts and ideas, not necessarily thought through:
>>  >Where do the toolbar, redo/tool panel, scene statistics, job progress
>> and warning messages, .. fit?
>> I think the scene statistics, job progress and warning messages fit well
>> at the top of the window, and that undo and redo should go there as
>> well, as it is there in other applications. I like the way how Blender
>> handles it's UI space by splitting it. It's unique, but that's ok. But
>> there is no reason to be unique without a valid reason, and that's why I
>> think some standards should apply, like the top bar with undo, redo and
>> other global stuff.
>> And, since Add is not a global command, but affects the 3d view, it
>> should go in the 3d view bar.
> A hundred times yes!!!!!! this has given some confusion to new users
> with multiple 3d views and differing layer/cursor settings. i.e. "where
> did my object go"
>> Also, I don't think there is a valid reason for the top bar to be a
>> window - I saw my students being easily confused by that. It should be a
>> genuine bar.
> It is a nifty place to tuck the python outputs, which most people don't
> want to see.
>> Speaking of standards - LMB to select, LMB + shift to add to selection,
>> LMB + alt to remove from selection, and RMB for menu would be nice. But
>> that's a bit off-topic.
> You're going to provoke holy wars :)
>>  >How can we communicate better which data is being edited in each editor?
>> How about a big button on top of the toolbar in the texture paint mode,
>> where you choose which texture you paint on?
>> How about the image editor working a bit like a mini-app? So no
>> automatic image opening when you click a face, or click an object etc,
>> but you manually double click an image a texture uses, or press a button
>> that's on the right side of it, and the image editor opens it, or you
>> click Open from the image editor, and you open an image that is already
>> loaded into Blender, or from disc?
>> I also find that this "fake user", and not used data vanishing when
>> closing Blender, is not very intuitive. More intuitive would be if the
>> data, along with unlink (the X at the moment), would have a delete data
>> option (with a "Are you sure?" confirmation).
> I think if pop-ups are the answer, you're asking the wrong question ;)
>> The fact that a texture and image and image file are separate entities,
>> and all can have different names, is also a bit daunting... Simplifying
>> this would be nice - for instance - auto-naming:
>> When you create a new image in a texture that is named Wall, instead of
>> the name that is automatically proposed - Untitled, or Untitled.001 etc
>> - you could have Wall or Wall.001.
>>  >Do we keep the Object > Action > Setting workflow for all tools, or
>> should we deviate in some cases?
>> I don't think that a single global toolbar is a good idea - the way the
>> tools work now is very efficient. Except an undo - a global undo that
>> records everything, even with view changes (see Mari) would be great.
>>  > Should material, texture and modifier tools exist, or do we keep that
>> out of the toolbar?
>> I would keep it out of the toolbar, it's quite cluttered as it is now
>> anyway, especially when you add plugins - my own toolbar with all the
>> sections open is a mile long.
>> Which brings me to my next point - visual toolbar with icons for
>> conserving space. It's a standard in UI design, and it works. Here is a
>> mockup:
>> http://db.tt/WlnZWSKJ (top-left)
>> I also love customizable UI's. Adding more customizability to the
>> toolbar would be great, because all commands/tools are used by someone,
>> but a single user uses probably a fraction of all commands/tools.
>> So ideas: Hiding never-used commands from the toolbar with H and
>> mouseover, unhiding all with alt-H (with icon that states - "some of the
>> commands here are hidden")? Adding some buttons as favourites to the 3d
>> view, maybe as floating icons? -
>> http://www.lion-gv.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/silo.jpg Or as a
>> non movable (that ignores scrolling) quick bar at the top of the
>> toolbar. It would also contain vital buttons for the modes, like the
>> brush, color and brush properties for the texture paint mode, and brush
>> and brush properties for the sculpt mode.
>> Or even a full customize mode, where you organize the toolbar as you want.
>> I know you can rearrange the sections, and open and close them, but I
>> feel that it's not an optimal solution. I never really do that, because
>> it gets reshuffled again in the end, for instance by turning plugins on
>> and off, or updating them.
>>  >Discoverability
>> Again, global toolbar is not a good idea IMO.
>> +1 for better tooltips. More instructions shown in the 3d window while
>> using tools would be also good. For instance - when using circle select
>> etc, some text explaining what the keys do when using this tool - mouse
>> wheel for range and MMB for deselect (what's up with that anyway? should
>> be LMB to select, LMB + shift to add to selection, LMB + alt to remove
>> from selection. Using up MMB button means that you can't orbit while
>> selecting).
>>  >In general, how can we make it easier for users to find the
>> appropriate tool or editor to perform some task?
>> Good, not too small icons with good tooltips would help. Also, more
>> visual attention to some menus. Mode change menu looks the same as pivot
>> center menu? It should be more prominent. And maybe not in form of a
>> menu, but a switcher with big icons, with the active menu lit up, like
>> that - https://db.tt/pG4D7aUf
>> Other than that, commands in menus are enough IMO.
>>  >Do we add buttons for viewport navigation without shortcut keys?
>> Would be good IMO, some small icons on the 3d view, for the ones showing
>> something in Blender without proper mouse, or for those learning that
>> want to check what are the shortcuts via the tooltip.
>>  > Mockups
>> I'll see if I'll have time.
>>  > Which UI elements should be added to top level of the UI?
>>  > Which UI elements should be removed from the top level and where
>> should they move to?
>> How about a simple plugin that records time and used commands/button
>> presses? Volunteers could use it during their normal workflow and submit
>> statistics.
>> Regards
>> Paweł Łyczkowski
>> plyczkowski.com
>> On 22-09-2013 15:57, Brecht Van Lommel wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I will be doing a UI talk + session at the Blender Conference. There
>> > has been a lot of discussion about this topic, people proposing ideas
>> > and making mockups, so it seemed like a good idea to do something
>> > related to that.
>> >
>> > The plan is to do two things. First I'll talk about the current
>> > Blender UI design. There's a wiki page about that here, trying to look
>> > at the big picture, hidden trade-offs and issues that aren't discussed
>> > as much. It may be interesting in general for people who like to think
>> > about Blender UI design and make mockups:
>> >
>> > http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:Brecht/UI
>> >
>> > After that we can do an open session to connect developers and
>> > designers interested in working on the UI. I think we'll try to do
>> > this on friday, so that further discussion can happen during the next
>> > days of the conference too.
>> >
>> > One thing I would love to see from designers is a mockup or sketch of
>> > what the full Blender UI should look like, addressing some of the
>> > questions raised in the page linked above. It doesn't have to look
>> > great, but it's interesting to see where everything fits, what is
>> > removed, what is added, etc. Such mockups can be presented or
>> > discussed in the session.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Brecht.
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
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