[Bf-funboard] general comments and funcionality improvement suggestions

Campbell Barton ideasman42 at gmail.com
Thu Apr 5 02:42:35 CEST 2012 

eh? so this is a non issue now? - did any of the proposed solutions
sound useful to you?

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:30 AM, Bol Bib <bollebib at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> ah ofcourse. I forgot the obvious implications concerning cameras and their settings.
> A camera is not just another viewport mode.
>
> Thank you for looking into it,though,and taking the time to explain the problem.
>
> I can live with it.
> Are there any other of my ideas that are a fool's errand?
> I would like to know so I wouldn't need to keep my hopes up for them.
>
>
> Kind regards
>
> Steven
>
>> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:53:50 +1100
>> From: ideasman42 at gmail.com
>> To: bf-funboard at blender.org
>> Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] general comments and funcionality improvement      suggestions
>>
>> error, corretion below.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Campbell Barton <ideasman42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I'm ignoring pressing numpad 0 switching back to last view issue -
>> > this is an intentional feature, but rather not discuss it for now.
>> >
>> > so it boils down to: Middle mouse drag in camera view COULD/SHOULD
>> > keep my view (frame same area of view - zoom/pan)
>> >
>> > listed 4 possible solutions, 1 workaround :)
>> >
>> > == first/obvious option ==
>> > This is tricky because for it to work...
>> >
>> > * The regular viewport would need a SHIFT X/Y feature,
>> > ...notice if you zoom in the side of the camera view the vanishing
>> > point is no longer centered,
>> >
>> > * Middle Click Dragging would have to change the Field-of-view
>> > ...notice if you zoom in camera view it changes the FOV (zoom out
>> > becomes wide angle).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > This is of course possible - but I really think this would become more annoying
>> >
>> > 1) you would have this new/strange shift setting in the viewport which
>> > would need to be controlled somehow (yet another setting we need
>> > buttons, viewport manipulation for) - really for common work having
>> > FOV in regular viewport is overkill IMHO,
>>
>> ... for common work having ***SHIFT X/Y*** in regular viewport is
>> overkill IMHO ...
>>
>> >
>> > 2) Changing the users FOV every time they go out of camera view would
>> > also be irritating IMHO, sometimes.
>> >
>> >
>> > == cheating option 1 ==
>> >
>> > So when you MMB drag the view it can just cheat - make a `ghost` copy
>> > of the camera that is not displayed in the scene - and only exists for
>> > the purpose of view navigation,
>> >
>> > This can work but I worry it makes our code a bit messy and is a
>> > fairly bad hack for a spesific use case, users would also need to be
>> > aware that a view is in this new `mode`, and have a way to get out of
>> > it.
>> >
>> >
>> > == cheating option 2 ==
>> >
>> > Allow the camera to be moved but dont adjust its location rotation (a
>> > temporary transform which isnt stored in the object - internally this
>> > would change the final matrix but not the loc/scale/rot).
>> >
>> > Again, can work but is adding an exceptional case we have to keep
>> > supporting (camera matrix and location being intentionally out of
>> > sync) and think this could backfire easily and be hard to support.
>> >
>> >
>> > == best guess ==
>> >
>> > Without adding viewport shift or changing FOV.
>> > Surely its possible to place the view *roughly* in the same place as
>> > you are zoomed to?
>> >
>> > eeeh - well yes - but you would need to check on the depth of objects
>> > infront of you - then re-position the view based on this to
>> > *approximately* frame those same objects,
>> >
>> > I think this is the best option since it doesnt add difficult to
>> > support code - and only changes the behavior in oneplace.
>> >
>> > Still, guesses can be infuriatingly wrong - should empties/lamps be
>> > included? - should the median depth be used or the closest object?
>> > what if there is 1px of a close object in the view, should that be
>> > ignored? etc........
>> >
>> >
>> > == don't solve, workaround ==
>> >
>> > You will notice in non camera view, Shft+B, will border zoom onto an
>> > area (using depth), currently Shif+B is used for border render in the
>> > camear view but with some keybinding changes we can easy have it
>> > working.
>> >
>> > This way you can define a region of interest and move out of camera
>> > view to zoom into it.
>> >
>> > The operator that does this could very easily have an option to
>> > initialize its border from the view bounds so you dont actually need
>> > to draw the border.
>> >
>> > Once this is done is basically just a matter of adding access to this
>> > feature in a way that suits you. Im not convinced this is good default
>> > behavior - because it will zoom into a small object if there is only
>> > one in the scene, but It could be configured to be useful to the
>> > porpose you are taking about IMHO.
>> >
>> > Perhaps just having a way to access border zoom in camera mode would be enough.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 3:30 AM, Steven Schoorens <bollebib at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> That is exactly what I mean
>> >> You put it so much better then I did XD
>> >>
>> >> and I would also second your request.
>> >> I havent worked with multiple camera's yet,in blender, but mostly I prefer only one.
>> >> So maybe it could be that there are 2 ways to work with this: One way is to make a new camera with some shortcut as you propose (I think),but I would also propose a second suboption that lets you reuse your current camera if you so wish-> this way you move the camera and put a keyframe (with autokeyframe on)automaticly. Doing this you can quickly move through your scene AND in time to make quick camera movements,and refine them afterwards.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> wouldn't this maybe tie in a bit with your last request ? (save and load view states)
>> >> But it might still be good to have that last feature as well. I notice that 9 on the numpad is the only number not doing anything viewport related right now (unless I'm missing something?)
>> >> Maybe it might be good to assign that button to that feature,and pressing "9" will get you the Floating saved view list,Shift+9 lets you add new views,alt+9 lets you remove them
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> this way you save multple views you find interesting and recall them as needed...
>> >>
>> >> I think this would work fine,unless someone has a different idea?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> kind regards
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Steven
>> >>
>> >>> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:32:04 +0200
>> >>> From: j at zafio.com
>> >>> To: bf-funboard at blender.org
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] general comments and funcionality improvement      suggestions
>> >>>
>> >>> If I understood it right, your concern is the transition from Camera View
>> >>> to 3d View, which happens when rotating (or even just press MMB once) so
>> >>> the "jumpcut" would be the small "zoom out" that leaves the camera's
>> >>> "gizmo" just in front, right?
>> >>> Plus any panning and zooming you do in Camera view is lost when you switch
>> >>> to 3d view...
>> >>>
>> >>> So, you want an option for the 3d view to inherit the "view state/settings"
>> >>> of the active camera, so there is a clear and flickerless transition, right?
>> >>>
>> >>> I think it is a good idea, in fact, it would be also interesting to add the
>> >>> "inverse" option to match the camera to the 3d view.
>> >>> As it is pretty usual you move around a scene in 3d view and you find a
>> >>> nice angle you want to use to render, but you have to create a camera and
>> >>> recreate the same settings... which takes more time than checking an option
>> >>> or pressing a shortcut.
>> >>>
>> >>> This last option could be also integrated right in the "add camera" panel,
>> >>> and even creating it from the Add menu or with a shortcut, adding SHIFT or
>> >>> ALT.
>> >>>
>> >>> Another interesting feature would be to save and load view states (for
>> >>> either 3d views or Cameras), rather than having to create lots of cameras.
>> >>> It is faster to press a shortcut, than having to create and setup a new
>> >>> camera each time.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Bol Bib <bollebib at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Hello and thank you very much for replying ^^
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I call it "snap back" but it's actually more of a 'jumpcut' sort of thing.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >  I'll talk you through the steps I take for a real use scenario:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I'm in animating stage of my work process(but doesn't matter which process
>> >>> > you are in really...),and I just want to animate and look at how everything
>> >>> > will look in the camera,.
>> >>> > So I push '0' and I get the camera view. I move stuff around, I zoom
>> >>> > in/zoom out,move the 3D view up/down,but remain in camera view mode (so no
>> >>> > rotation of the 3Dview).
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Then I want to animate some detail which for whatever reason doesn't quite
>> >>> > work from the camera view (for example:the object I want to animate is
>> >>> > behind the object )
>> >>> > so I'd have to rotate to get a better view of the bone/object,right?
>> >>> > But when you try to rotate the viewport/3D view when you are IN Camera
>> >>> > mode and you have done several operations with the 3D view (zoomed in/out,
>> >>> > moved 3Dview...)
>> >>> > as soon as you rotate the view you snap back to where the camera phyiscly
>> >>> > is,in the scene,and any zoom or move you had,is gone,and you have to
>> >>> > re-zoom en re-move your viewport to where you were working on.
>> >>> > This can be could annoying when having to to lots of small tweaks to an
>> >>> > animation or a model or a scene.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > -So in short this is how blender now acts:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > press 0 ->move and zoom 3D view a bit->when trying to rotate=> JUMPCUT to
>> >>> > where camera really is ,and only then normal 3Dview behaviour (which is not
>> >>> > wanted behaviour.)
>> >>> >
>> >>> > -THis is what I would like
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > press 0 ->move and zoom 3D View a bit->when trying to rotate=> Just normal
>> >>> > 3D view behaviour, the Camera contour/passepartout just disappears without
>> >>> > the need for a jump
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Of course this problem is not such a problem if you use different 3D views
>> >>> > at once (so you can have a dedicated camera view viewport),
>> >>> > but this greatly reduces screen estate and not every one has multiple
>> >>> > monitors,or a huge one to make up for that.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >  When repressing '0' ,apparently the camera view still remembers those
>> >>> > view translations,which is good. But this issue make me lose quite a bit of
>> >>> > time because of needing to re-zoom and/re-move the viewport every time I
>> >>> > rotate out of the camera view
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > -to recap:  I just want the camera view to behave like any other 3D
>> >>> > viewport,in that when you rotate the view,it just rotates like a 3D view.
>> >>> > You DO in fact LEAVE the camera view (as it is now),but leave it WITHOUT
>> >>> > any jumps in the viewport.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > The "lock camera to view "mode make the 3D view behave like a normal
>> >>> > viewport but it ACTUALLY moves the camera. So you would have to reposition
>> >>> > your camera if you did this,which is no solution to my problem.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Does anyone NEED that kind of snapback/jumpcut? If they do,then make my
>> >>> > "solution" ,if you deem it just, an option. If they don't, well maybe this
>> >>> > could/should be default behaviour?
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I hope this is clear ,now,if you have any more questions I'd be happy to
>> >>> > answer them.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Incidentally,are my other "issues" in that huge "wishlist"(and in the
>> >>> > second one) clear? Am I just being an entitled bastard? (very possibly...)
>> >>> > Or are some points worthy of being considered?
>> >>> > I just wish to complete some workparadigms the people at blender obviously
>> >>> > had in mind, and extend them to the whole program (like the filters,Follow
>> >>> > Context...),
>> >>> > as opposed to only here and there (like in some cases right now) and
>> >>> > propose some ideas to make blender even more awesome then it is.
>> >>> > I do not think I'm asking for very difficult stuff (like bmesh or cycles
>> >>> > or a pony XD) but ,in my opinion, stuff that would make lots of people's
>> >>> > workflow much more enjoyable,quick and organised (like filters, hiding of
>> >>> > UI elements...)
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Except perhaps number 10 (LINK BONES and their respective keyframes) this
>> >>> > one might be a bit too much (but would be very usefull though) for a simple
>> >>> > patch.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Would you prefer it if I make a new mail for every issue I have ,or is
>> >>> > bundling them like that okay?
>> >>> > Should I wait a bit before posting new ones? Or can I post them whenever?
>> >>> > I don't want to exageratewith lots of posts, but  I'm just very passionate
>> >>> > about user comfort in programs. (and Blender is the best one yet ,but could
>> >>> > be even better!)
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Kind regards
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Steven
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > > Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:36:09 +1100
>> >>> > > From: ideasman42 at gmail.com
>> >>> > > To: bf-funboard at blender.org
>> >>> > > Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] general comments and funcionality improvement
>> >>> >      suggestions
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > > 1. looking out of the camera ,from which I animate, if I try to rotate
>> >>> > the view, going OUT of said camera mode,I always get a violent snap back to
>> >>> > the camera,regardless of where I was zooming with the camera. While I know
>> >>> > this is logical behaviour,it is not functional behaviour. While animating
>> >>> > one zooms ,rotates, and moves on the fly while adjusting bones and objects.
>> >>> > The snapback I experience makes me have to re-frame and re-zoom back to
>> >>> > where I was everytime.
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > There IS the lock camera to view mode, which has good functionality
>> >>> > but it actually moves the camera ,and at this point in the animation,I
>> >>> > actually DONT want the camera to move.
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > To recap,when I am in camera view mode,i just want the viewport to
>> >>> > behave like a viewport and not snap back everyime.
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > Hi. I read this a couple of times but cant follow it - you dont want
>> >>> > > the camera to move but also dont want 'snap back' -
>> >>> > > could you explain in detail how you think it could work better?
>> >>> > > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > > Bf-funboard mailing list
>> >>> > > Bf-funboard at blender.org
>> >>> > > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>> >>> >
>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > Bf-funboard mailing list
>> >>> > Bf-funboard at blender.org
>> >>> > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>> >>> >
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>> >>
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > - Campbell
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Campbell
>> _______________________________________________
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-- 
- Campbell

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