[Bf-funboard] Respond on ther limits to removing doubles

[Willem Verwey]

Hey All

I've done some test myselve.

To me it looks like Blender choses the vertexes that where greated first as 
tha main vertex to conform to. So basically the vertex would be by default 
chosen as at firs. Dos this seems right.

Regards

Willem

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <bf-funboard-request at blender.org>
To: <bf-funboard at blender.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 8:31 AM
Subject: Bf-funboard Digest, Vol 53, Issue 5


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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re: Blender - Alt M (Sangwoo Hong)
>   2. Re: Blender - Alt M (Sangwoo Hong)
>   3. Re: Blender - Alt M (Roger)
>   4. Re: Blender - Alt M (Roger)
>   5. Re: Blender - Alt M (Kernon Dillon)
>   6. Re: Blender - Alt M (Roger)
>   7. Re: Blender - Alt M (Roger)
>   8. Re: Blender - Alt M (Jason van Gumster)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:27:32 -0800
> From: "Sangwoo Hong" <sahngwoo at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Blender - Alt M
> To: bf-funboard at blender.org
> Message-ID:
> <7afa85950901061027k2c40ae5cid05e47691bccb8be at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Robert Wenzlaff (AB8TD) <
> rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com> wrote:
>
>> Right next to the Remove Doubles button in the Meshtools panel of the 
>> Edit
>> Buttons.  It's labled "Limit".
>
>
> Man, I didn't even realize there was a button for Remove Doubles let alone 
> a
> slide which controls the limit distance. I've always just used W,6.
>
> I did notice one problem with remove double's functionality even with the
> limit option though.  The problem is Remove Doubles does exactly that.  It
> removed the point it considers to be a "double" based on the distance 
> limit
> but leaves the "first" point exactly where it started.  (I suspect the
> "first" point has a lower vertex index number then the "doubles".)  This 
> can
> actually be desirable for the original poster's problem of stitching
> together walls if he can control which side of the wall has the lower 
> vertex
> indices.  However, sometimes one wants both points to move to the center 
> of
> where they were before the merge like in the case of stitching together 
> two
> mirrored halves which might not be meeting exactly at some axis = 0.
>
> phong.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:28:46 -0800
> From: "Sangwoo Hong" <sahngwoo at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Blender - Alt M
> To: bf-funboard at blender.org
> Message-ID:
> <7afa85950901061028n4eb1f017q265461067386891e at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Tony Mullen <tony.mullen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >I have no idea how Blender picks which of the points to delete
>>
>> It picks them based on proximity. You set the maximum distance in the
>> Limit field next to the Rem Doubles button.
>
>
> Just to clarify, what I meant here by which point gets deleted is which of
> the "double" points are deleted, now how a point is determined to be a
> double point.
>
> phong.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 11:09:33 +1100
> From: Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Blender - Alt M
> To: bf-funboard at blender.org
> Message-ID: <4963F2BD.8050706 at net-tech.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Alex Fraser wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Tony Mullen <tony.mullen at gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>> a good one and it seems to be obvious missing functionality. Blender
>>> already has an "at first" and "at last" option when merging two
>>> vertices. It does not have an "at first" or "at last" when merging
>>> more than two vertices, and it would be useful it it did.
>
> Thats what I'm thinking.
>
>>
>> Merge > Collapse almost does what you need: it merges vertices based
>> on their connectivity. But it always collapses to the centre of each
>> selected group.
>
>
> No it doesn't.
> Merge Collapse collapses to a central point, it doesn't merge verts at a 
> point
> between the verts.
> If you have an extruded plane and collapse the verts you get a point of 
> one vert.
> Roger
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 11:17:42 +1100
> From: Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Blender - Alt M
> To: bf-funboard at blender.org
> Message-ID: <4963F4A6.7010006 at net-tech.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Tony Mullen wrote:
>>> I have no idea how Blender picks which of the points to delete
>>
>> It picks them based on proximity. You set the maximum distance in the
>> Limit field next to the Rem Doubles button.
>>
>> I don't fully understand most of the workarounds proposed here to
>> Roger's initial suggestion, and I don't see how this issue could be
>> addressed using proximity-based merging. But the suggestion itself is
>> a good one and it seems to be obvious missing functionality. Blender
>> already has an "at first" and "at last" option when merging two
>> vertices. It does not have an "at first" or "at last" when merging
>> more than two vertices, and it would be useful it it did. Of course
>> there are workarounds involving snapping with the 3D cursor, but these
>> are all extra steps and it seems most sensible simply to have merging
>> work the same with 2+ verts as it works with 2 verts.
>>
> <Mesh Tools><Remove Doubles> works if the proximity is set accordingly 
> high.
> It does not remove the join and make the object into one piece.
> Take 2 cubes joined and close together, so 4 verts of each are in 
> proximity say
> 0.2 blender unit apart.
> Rem Doubles works if the Limit (proximity)  is 0.21 or slightly larger 
> than the
> distance between.
> I guess this would work for any distance up to the maximim of the 
> Limitprovided
> the Limit is suitably set.
>
> Its all extra work when simple selection of verts and merge would speed 
> the process.
> TIA
> Roger
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 19:30:32 -0500
> From: "Kernon Dillon" <kernond at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Blender - Alt M
> To: bf-funboard at blender.org
> Message-ID:
> <623fa8c00901061630x7c6830eemfd4c37a4980ce0b8 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> If you want to control the location of the merge, set the pivot control to
> 3d cursor. Place or snap the 3d cursor as desired. Select the two rows of
> vertices that you want to merge. Make sure AutoMerge is enabled. Scale to
> zero along the axis for the desired merge. Remove Doubles with the default
> settings. Done.
>
> If you have several merges to perform, then wait until you've finished
> aligning everything before doing a Remove Doubles. That way you only have 
> to
> do it once.
>
> After setting the pivot control and enabling AutoMerge, it's a very fast
> solution *that works*. I can't think of a faster way without having a
> specific button or macro for the task.
>
> I can create a quick video demonstrating the process, if needed.
>
>
> Kernon
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 7:17 PM, Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Tony Mullen wrote:
>> >> I have no idea how Blender picks which of the points to delete
>> >
>> > It picks them based on proximity. You set the maximum distance in the
>> > Limit field next to the Rem Doubles button.
>> >
>> > I don't fully understand most of the workarounds proposed here to
>> > Roger's initial suggestion, and I don't see how this issue could be
>> > addressed using proximity-based merging. But the suggestion itself is
>> > a good one and it seems to be obvious missing functionality. Blender
>> > already has an "at first" and "at last" option when merging two
>> > vertices. It does not have an "at first" or "at last" when merging
>> > more than two vertices, and it would be useful it it did. Of course
>> > there are workarounds involving snapping with the 3D cursor, but these
>> > are all extra steps and it seems most sensible simply to have merging
>> > work the same with 2+ verts as it works with 2 verts.
>> >
>> <Mesh Tools><Remove Doubles> works if the proximity is set accordingly
>> high.
>> It does not remove the join and make the object into one piece.
>> Take 2 cubes joined and close together, so 4 verts of each are in 
>> proximity
>> say
>> 0.2 blender unit apart.
>> Rem Doubles works if the Limit (proximity)  is 0.21 or slightly larger 
>> than
>> the
>> distance between.
>> I guess this would work for any distance up to the maximim of the
>> Limitprovided
>> the Limit is suitably set.
>>
>> Its all extra work when simple selection of verts and merge would speed 
>> the
>> process.
>> TIA
>> Roger
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bf-funboard mailing list
>> Bf-funboard at blender.org
>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Kernon Dillon
> ------------------------------------------------------
> BlenderNewbies.com
> a learning resource for Blender3D
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:02:39 +1100
> From: Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Blender - Alt M
> To: bf-funboard at blender.org
> Message-ID: <49640D3F.3050701 at net-tech.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Sangwoo Hong wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Tony Mullen <tony.mullen at gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> I have no idea how Blender picks which of the points to delete
>>> It picks them based on proximity. You set the maximum distance in the
>>> Limit field next to the Rem Doubles button.
>>
>>
>> Just to clarify, what I meant here by which point gets deleted is which 
>> of
>> the "double" points are deleted, now how a point is determined to be a
>> double point.
>>
>> phong.
>>
>
>
>
> Start with a plane, extrude one edge along the x  a number of times, move 
> the
> internal edges to be close together representing a wall thickness.
> Select the internal edges and remove doubles will remove the edge or vert 
> that
> was the last extruded provided it is within the Limits and leafe the 
> previous
> extruded edge.
> Roger
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:03:06 +1100
> From: Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Blender - Alt M
> To: bf-funboard at blender.org
> Message-ID: <49640D5A.4070700 at net-tech.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Sangwoo Hong wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Robert Wenzlaff (AB8TD) <
>> rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Right next to the Remove Doubles button in the Meshtools panel of the 
>>> Edit
>>> Buttons.  It's labled "Limit".
>>
>>
>> Man, I didn't even realize there was a button for Remove Doubles let 
>> alone a
>> slide which controls the limit distance. I've always just used W,6.
>>
>> I did notice one problem with remove double's functionality even with the
>> limit option though.  The problem is Remove Doubles does exactly that. 
>> It
>> removed the point it considers to be a "double" based on the distance 
>> limit
>> but leaves the "first" point exactly where it started.  (I suspect the
>> "first" point has a lower vertex index number then the "doubles".)  This 
>> can
>> actually be desirable for the original poster's problem of stitching
>> together walls if he can control which side of the wall has the lower 
>> vertex
>> indices.  However, sometimes one wants both points to move to the center 
>> of
>> where they were before the merge like in the case of stitching together 
>> two
>> mirrored halves which might not be meeting exactly at some axis = 0.
>>
>> phong.
>>
> Remove Doubles does not work at all well for 2 half spheres even with 
> identical
> verts unless the Limits are set very accurately to very slightly greater 
> than
> the distance between the 2 halves and less than the distance between the
> circumferential verts.
> For head models which have large number of circumferential verts this can 
> cause
> distortion.
> Roger
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 01:30:10 -0500
> From: Jason van Gumster <flaw at misaligned.net>
> Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Blender - Alt M
> To: bf-funboard at blender.org
> Message-ID: <20090107013010.02d27436 at plasma.misaligned.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
> "Kernon Dillon" <kernond at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If you want to control the location of the merge, set the pivot
>> control to 3d cursor. Place or snap the 3d cursor as desired. Select
>> the two rows of vertices that you want to merge. Make sure AutoMerge
>> is enabled. Scale to zero along the axis for the desired merge.
>> Remove Doubles with the default settings. Done.
>>
>> If you have several merges to perform, then wait until you've finished
>> aligning everything before doing a Remove Doubles. That way you only
>> have to do it once.
>>
>> After setting the pivot control and enabling AutoMerge, it's a very
>> fast solution *that works*. I can't think of a faster way without
>> having a specific button or macro for the task.
>>
>> I can create a quick video demonstrating the process, if needed.
>
> Another possible method would be to use Edge Slide in combination with
> Auto Merge. Assuming you're working with edges that do not cross
> themselves, it would work even faster.
>
> There are a couple technical problems with the merge proposal that's
> being made. First of all, the proposed workflow is backwards from how
> everything else is done in Blender. Blender works with a select -> act
> methodology. The current suggestion for vertices is act -> select
> (two groups of verts). Not only is that a modal behavior, but also
> there's not a particularly easy way to tell Blender which selected
> verts (or edges, for that matter) belong to which group you want to
> merge from/to. What's being asked for sounds too unpredictable to
> automate.
>
> If you're trying to get rid of superfluous edge loops, then the Erase
> Edge Loop feature is probably closer to what you want/need. However for
> an arbitrary string of vertices that you want to merge with another
> arbitrary string of vertices, I don't think there's a way to get it to
> behave predictably without shackling it down with all kinds of
> conditions and restrictions (vertices should share an edge, the groups
> of verts have to have equal numbers, etc.)
>
> Of course... I've been wrong before. :P
>
>  -Fweeb
>
>
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