[Bf-funboard] Mouse Versus hot Keys

Willem Verwey willem at 3danim8.net
Thu Feb 19 08:01:04 CET 2009


Hi Guy's

I will try not to take you off the point. Since I'm an user and educator and
not a developer. In my experience in teaching blender, I've found that the
main problem with the blender interface is not so much the fact that it is
difficult. It is more that it is not windows based. So the typical Windows
commands does not work as it would it programs like 3d Studio. I do not
believe Blender is more difficult to learn than Maya or 3ds. I think for
someone that's used to 3ds max (Where I came from) to convert to Blender is
a big step. 

Yes there are a lot of improvements we can work on, and we do. I think that
using a tablet for a experience user would not necessary be faster, bat may
be able to make the workflow a bit more easy.

I like the way Blender work with the shortcuts and think that it is one of
Blender strong points since it make the workflow very fast. 

Well keep up the good work.

Regards

Willem

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Mouse versus hot keys (Robert Wenzlaff (AB8TD))
   2. Re: Mouse versus hot keys (joe)
   3. Re: Mouse versus hot keys (joe)
   4. Re: Mouse versus hot keys (Karl K?hberger)
   5. Re: Mouse versus hot keys (joe)
   6. Re: Mouse versus hot keys (joe)
   7. Re: Mouse versus hot keys (Roger)
   8. Re: Mouse versus hot keys (Roger)
   9. Animation help needed (Roger)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:27:36 -0500
From: "Robert Wenzlaff (AB8TD)" <rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com>
Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Mouse versus hot keys
To: bf-funboard at blender.org
Message-ID: <200902180827.36430.rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wednesday 18 February 2009 01:13, joe wrote:
> Besides, saying that "new students can't grow" into blender because
> they need a keyboard is kindof silly.

We were all new students of Blender at some point.  Have none of us grown?
-- 
**************************************************
As Socrates once said:
               "I drank what?????"
**************************************************
Robert Wenzlaff        rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com       


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:49:12 -0700
From: joe <joeedh at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Mouse versus hot keys
To: bf-funboard at blender.org
Message-ID:
	<ca3ef29a0902181049qa69262fibc136cf7edfd8667 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

And what does that mean?

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 6:27 AM, Robert Wenzlaff (AB8TD)
<rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday 18 February 2009 01:13, joe wrote:
>> Besides, saying that "new students can't grow" into blender because
>> they need a keyboard is kindof silly.
>
> We were all new students of Blender at some point.  Have none of us grown?
> --
> **************************************************
> As Socrates once said:
>               "I drank what?????"
> **************************************************
> Robert Wenzlaff        rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com
> _______________________________________________
> Bf-funboard mailing list
> Bf-funboard at blender.org
> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:01:32 -0700
From: joe <joeedh at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Mouse versus hot keys
To: bf-funboard at blender.org
Message-ID:
	<ca3ef29a0902181101g35cc0a5aq72d64591f729d8a at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Oh I get it.  You're saying that students beginning now will not being
using mice when they finish school, in which case they won't be able
to get everything out of blender?  It's an interesting point.  Though
like I said, I highly doubt any of the major packages will support
tablets well, in the foreseeable future (certainly not maya, given
their track record, which is what most students use in school).

The problem with this argument, is that students won't be
learning/using 3d packages that way, since none of them work very well
exclusively with a tablet.  They have to use a keyboard to be
efficient in any major 3d comprehensive package (except for maya,
which is probably customizable enough people can rework the UI, though
it'd probably still be a pain).  Besides, I'm not convinced tablets
are better for everything.  Point and click is very pretty, but doing
it so it doesn't slow you down can be difficult, especially in
something as complex as a comprehensive 3d package.

Joe

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:49 AM, joe <joeedh at gmail.com> wrote:
> And what does that mean?
>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 6:27 AM, Robert Wenzlaff (AB8TD)
> <rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday 18 February 2009 01:13, joe wrote:
>>> Besides, saying that "new students can't grow" into blender because
>>> they need a keyboard is kindof silly.
>>
>> We were all new students of Blender at some point.  Have none of us
grown?
>> --
>> **************************************************
>> As Socrates once said:
>>               "I drank what?????"
>> **************************************************
>> Robert Wenzlaff        rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bf-funboard mailing list
>> Bf-funboard at blender.org
>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>>
>


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:18:42 +0100
From: Karl K?hberger <karl.kuehberger at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Mouse versus hot keys
To: bf-funboard at blender.org
Message-ID:
	<55dfdec10902181118vd982ebcpd67f4df824730142 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Yes, of course! And "professional" Blender users forget often
about this. But if Blender should become more widely used,
it should become "a little more" user-friendly.

Mostly "beginner friendly" should not mean "slower for advanced users".
And the usage of shortcuts is NOT always faster then a more graphical
way or the usage of the mouse.

I will try to show up this using the example of assigning an image
texture to an object:

- In Blender we have to select the object with RMB, than in F5 press
  "ADD NEW", then in the Texture buttons press "ADD NEW" again,
  then select texture type "Image", then press "LOAD" and finally select
  the right image file.

- It also could work this way:
  You have a 3D-Viewport and an Image Browser on your screen. Now just take
  the right thumbnail and throw it onto the object in the viewport to assign
it.
  If you move the thumbnail over an object, this could turn to turn to
violett (similar to inserting loops)
  and you confirm the operation by just releasing the mouse button.
  If the object had no material before, it could have become one
automatically.

IMHO the second way is more intuitive for beginners and even faster
for professionals.

Karl



2009/2/18 Robert Wenzlaff (AB8TD) <rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com>:
> On Wednesday 18 February 2009 01:13, joe wrote:
>> Besides, saying that "new students can't grow" into blender because
>> they need a keyboard is kindof silly.
>
> We were all new students of Blender at some point.  Have none of us grown?
> --
> **************************************************
> As Socrates once said:
>               "I drank what?????"
> **************************************************
> Robert Wenzlaff        rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com
> _______________________________________________
> Bf-funboard mailing list
> Bf-funboard at blender.org
> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:21:47 -0700
From: joe <joeedh at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Mouse versus hot keys
To: bf-funboard at blender.org
Message-ID:
	<ca3ef29a0902181121q26d744b5mfa16f11208f96625 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au> wrote:
> I don't understand how any of the previous discussion relates to slowing
> Blender nor where so called trade offs come into the equation.
>
> Please would you explain how a couple of mouse clicks is slower or worse
than
> the existing way.
> Suggestions relate to speeding up and making the work flow more linear, so
I
> would greatly appreciate some detail, in how these are seen as slowing.

You're right in spirit, if not in this specific point.  We should
explore all workflow options for the UI (and in fact people actually
do).  It's not like the traditional exclusively-hotkey design is
framed over ton's desk or something.

Anyway, a "couple of mouse clicks" does make quite a difference.  I've
personally found this to be the case in maya, for example.  Of course
if there's less mouse clicks then hotkeys, and you don't have to aim
with precision, it's easier.  Having to aim with precision is the bad
part (personally, I love being able to still work even while dead
tired, because of not having to constantly click on menus and icons
and stuff and actually hit them :)  blender's selection is also very
forgiving).  This is why people invented pie menus.

Personally, I'd love an option to use pie menus in blender.  They work
as well as hotkeys, iirc, we could support customizing them, etc.
This would also solve the annoyance of trying to figure out/remember
hotkeys for menus (e.g. WKEY->0KEY does  does this. . .but wait
there's more then 9 items! how to get to WKEY->10? oh there's a hotkey
for that. . .eh. . .but what is it. . .).

>
> Learning Blender never stops it  just gets easier.
> I don't understand why beginners as different from learners are considered
> another species when the only game in town is using and promoting Blender.
>
> Most of the suggestions we have made in the past are (selfishly) to
improve our
> work flow, making it cleaner and are made after years of using Blender
daily.
>
As I've said before, improvements to blender's UI were blocked for a
long time by the state of the code.  With the 2.5 project, you can
expect a much easier to learn blender, and more intuitive (devs
actually do care about this, it's just there wasn't anything anyone
could do for so long).

But it won't be as easy as, say, maya (which sacrifices workflow speed
for the ability to easily find things in the UI).  This is a difficult
problem, and don't expect it to be completely solved in the near
future.

> Further, as Blender IS seen, albeit by the seriously uninformed,  as a non
> serious tool then surely this is the time to eliminate those arguments.
>
> Perplexed, Roger

Joe


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:28:18 -0700
From: joe <joeedh at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Mouse versus hot keys
To: bf-funboard at blender.org
Message-ID:
	<ca3ef29a0902181128j124bda7cld894189b927e9388 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

That sort of drag and drop would be cool. . .you could even support
dragging an image onto a selection of faces, and it'd assign the image
to them, generate a uv layer if necessary, etc.  It could pop up a
little menu asking whether to auto-generate a texture in the material
or not, or something like that.

I doubt this would happen for 2.5 (waaay too much else to do on the ui
front there) but afterwards I wouldn't be surprised if someone tackled
this. . .I think Matt Ebb has even experimented with this sort of
thing before.

Joe

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Karl K?hberger
<karl.kuehberger at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, of course! And "professional" Blender users forget often
> about this. But if Blender should become more widely used,
> it should become "a little more" user-friendly.
>
> Mostly "beginner friendly" should not mean "slower for advanced users".
> And the usage of shortcuts is NOT always faster then a more graphical
> way or the usage of the mouse.
>
> I will try to show up this using the example of assigning an image
> texture to an object:
>
> - In Blender we have to select the object with RMB, than in F5 press
>  "ADD NEW", then in the Texture buttons press "ADD NEW" again,
>  then select texture type "Image", then press "LOAD" and finally select
>  the right image file.
>
> - It also could work this way:
>  You have a 3D-Viewport and an Image Browser on your screen. Now just take
>  the right thumbnail and throw it onto the object in the viewport to
assign it.
>  If you move the thumbnail over an object, this could turn to turn to
> violett (similar to inserting loops)
>  and you confirm the operation by just releasing the mouse button.
>  If the object had no material before, it could have become one
automatically.
>
> IMHO the second way is more intuitive for beginners and even faster
> for professionals.
>
> Karl
>
>
>
> 2009/2/18 Robert Wenzlaff (AB8TD) <rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com>:
>> On Wednesday 18 February 2009 01:13, joe wrote:
>>> Besides, saying that "new students can't grow" into blender because
>>> they need a keyboard is kindof silly.
>>
>> We were all new students of Blender at some point.  Have none of us
grown?
>> --
>> **************************************************
>> As Socrates once said:
>>               "I drank what?????"
>> **************************************************
>> Robert Wenzlaff        rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bf-funboard mailing list
>> Bf-funboard at blender.org
>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Bf-funboard mailing list
> Bf-funboard at blender.org
> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard
>


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:16:16 +1100
From: Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Mouse versus hot keys
To: bf-funboard at blender.org
Message-ID: <499C88B0.7070403 at net-tech.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed


> When multi-touch arrives as the norm for 3D application interfaces,
> hotkeys will be made obsolete. But with currently available hardware,
> hotkeys are really necessary to maximize the efficiency of an
> interface for 3D work.
> 

Thank you Tony and Jason, much appreciated.
In deference to Jason, I don't espouse graphic s tablets as the be all and
end
all, they are merely a stepping stone.
What I have learned in this wonderful debate is how easy it is to use the
wrong
words to display a meaning inconsistent with my original thought and I thank
all
who contributed to the debate. I have learned to think more carefully about
what
I write as it inevitably will not be read the way I think it to be,  and the
reason, we are all coming from different perspectives.
I had no intention to change the world of Blender hot keys just ask for a
couple
of little things to be easier.
Many thanks
Roger




------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:20:51 +1100
From: Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Bf-funboard] Mouse versus hot keys
To: bf-funboard at blender.org
Message-ID: <499CA5E3.8020509 at net-tech.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

> - It also could work this way:
>   You have a 3D-Viewport and an Image Browser on your screen. Now just
take
>   the right thumbnail and throw it onto the object in the viewport to
assign it.
>   If you move the thumbnail over an object, this could turn to turn to
> violett (similar to inserting loops)
>   and you confirm the operation by just releasing the mouse button.
>   If the object had no material before, it could have become one
automatically.
> 
> IMHO the second way is more intuitive for beginners and even faster
> for professionals.
> 
> Karl
> 
Thank you Karl
Your example is what I would like to think the discussion is really about.
Doing 'some' things another way without changing the world.
Extending the dream further,.
While dropping a texture onto a group of selected verts instead of the whole

object as discussed in Joe's email, next step, could be to have ability to
drop 
  several textures, in preferred order, onto a selected vert group/s.

This then, ideally produces a node layout view or some other view? in which
each 
texture can be fine tuned just by clicking on its node editor.
All the texture nodes for a vert selection could be visible simultaneously.
Maybe this is already in place, I'm just now exploring nodes and the like so
if 
I'm off centre, please just ignore the email.
Probably quite impractical but it is fun to dream.

We, the user base, can't know nor understand what the Devs are thinking,
what 
their problems are or how long dreams take to eventuate,however, I for one
am 
very grateful to have the opportunity to input.
Roger


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:26:08 +1100
From: Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au>
Subject: [Bf-funboard] Animation help needed
To: bf-funboard at blender.org
Message-ID: <499CD150.8050905 at net-tech.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Apologies for this request on this forum
Need quick help
showing someone a quick blender animation technique.
set up 4 cubes vertically with space between
extruded armature and bones so bone joints are between the cubes in the gaps
an Ik on the top.
Just want to tilt the cubes not distort them

set each cube as a vertex group.
in pose mode parented each vertex group to it's bone.
Moving the IK moves the cubes as expected.
on frame 1 did an ipo I key <location rotation scale>
in pose mode on  frame 100  did an ipo  i <key location rotation scale>
The ipo showed flat line on all and there is no movement of the animation on
the
time line.

Yet if I scale  a cube, I key  then  on frame 100  scale, move,rotate and I
key
again I get the ipo curves.
Why doesn't it work with a bone set.

Got me tossed.
TIA
Roger





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