[Bf-funboard] Some skinning feature ideas

jonathan ferguson jdpf at edumetrics.org
Tue Apr 3 08:11:52 CEST 2007


hi

On Apr 2, 2007, at 10:52 PM, Campbell Barton wrote:

> Benjamin Tolputt wrote:
>> Joe Eagar wrote:
>>> I have a python script, that displays (in a menu) all the bones  
>>> that are influencing a vert.  Maybe something like this should be  
>>> implemented in blender?
>> This would (in my opinion), be an inferior stop-gap measure. While  
>> useful (I'm not bagging the idea as it has merit), it is only a  
>> "per vertex" function. The issue remains that when weight painting  
>> (emphasis on the word "painting"), one can only see the weight for  
>> the current bone as a colour. As mentioned by Tony, it is most  
>> useful to have the colour shown reflect the "applied weight" of  
>> the selected bone. Given that the "applied weight" (i.e.  
>> normalized weight) of the bone on the vertex is what controls the  
>> deformation - it is much more intuitive to see it (and not the non- 
>> normalized weight).
>> The display & editing options as proposed by Tony (i.e. a "Display  
>> Normalized Values" toggle and an "Assign Absolute Weights" toggle)  
>> would enable both the current workflow (as possibly preferred by  
>> current Blenders) and the new (in my opinion "more intuitive")  
>> workflow to exist side by side and quite possibly complement each  
>> other.
>> Regards,
>> B.J.Tolputt
>
> The menu for bones that influence a vert is in editmesh, am I  
> missing something?
>

Yes, as joeedh pointed out to me on #blendercoders, this works only  
for One Vertex in the N-Key panel. The Shift-Click menu in Weight  
Paint + Face Select mode assigns the bones to vertex groups too, but  
I get the idea that the original question is about stray influences,  
and is more aimed at seeing, and then editing.

> A lot of people arnt aware you can mix FaceSelect with Weight paint  
> mode.

Do you mean the trick where you select the mesh in Object Mode, then  
choose Weight Paint Mode, then type F? Switching out of this to Edit  
mode maintains the selection as well.

How do people currently identify overlapping bone weights for the  
whole armature? Flip between vertex groups really really fast? *Yes,  
Weight Paint shows it per bone, but what about the whole armature?*  
What would happen if artists could select two or more bones in Edit >  
Weight Paint mode to help define a joint? (I remind people that  
blender already has a primary and secondary selection state.)

> How about select all faces and have a menu option
>  "Isolate verts to active vgroup only" ?

How is this any different from selecting/deselecting the vertex group  
directly in the Link and Materials panel in Edit mode on the Mesh? Or  
is it the same thing, just a new menu option in Weight Paint mode? If  
so, then perhaps we should have other vertex group commands there too?

> - removing verts from groups other then the active (for selected  
> faces)

I ended up creating vertex groups in Edit mode, then "smoothing"  
those groups with Weight Painting. I used this Edit mode on Mesh >  
Weight Paint TAB-KEY you speak of Ideasman, and the lovely ability to  
tab between the two to get the work done. I did not know of the UV  
Face Select + Weight Paint mode then. From my experience,  
understanding the relationship between weight painting and vertex  
groups is not trivial to newbies. To me, the whole point of this  
discussion is to help remove the tedium and *very careful planning  
earned from trial and error* required to get a rig working with a  
mesh without making a mess of things and having to start over.  
Although blender is much better than Maya at this, (as Michael  
Crawford points out), it can still get even better.

I agree with those advocating for a way of *seeing* the *normalized  
influence* of a bone on a mesh in weight paint mode---possibly one  
might want to add additional functions to apply a normalization to  
the bones--- that might not be the desired intent of just looking at  
it, akin to the modifier stack's apply button.  Why not have a toggle  
button showing the normalized and non-normalized influence weights---  
akin to the bone view buttons? Though i suggest using the terms  
"single bone" or "selected bone(s)" and "armature" as the actual view  
option names in weight paint mode.

 From my experience, when creating vertex groups one has to be *very*  
careful. Can blender help inform users of stray i.e. non-contiguous  
meshes that have strayed into that vertex group while weight  
painting? I'm imagining color or some other unobtrusive flag, not a  
dialog box with a GOMS value of zero. I'm fairly new to the whole  
game of skinning and rigging, but it seems to me, that *most of the  
time* people want to have a bone influence a contiguous area of the  
mesh. Is this so? Wouldn't it be fairly easy to ask blender to check  
for that?


To restate the ideas here proposed thus far <apologies if i'm missing  
some, it is a bit late for me, but joeedh asked me to compile a list>  
(in wiki format):

* Introduce a Weight Paint view-mode toggle to switch between viewing  
the weights of the selected bone and viewing the weights of the whole  
armature.
	** The goal here is to show how blender interprets how the weights  
link to the armature. Show what's really happening with the weights.
* Introduce the ability to select multiple bones for Weight Paint  
mode, failing that, provide ability to quickly cycle between adjacent  
Vertex Groups.
	** Editing in this way would require nearest-bone smarts, or be  
limited to only 2 bones as per current selection states. Would this  
be useful in an Editing context or only a Viewing context?
* Allow for artists to apply the "normalized view" to the Armature,  
akin to some of the Python scripts in the Paint menu.
	** Provide clear means for artists to deal with stray influences---  
again, currently handled with Python scripts in an invisible sort of  
way.
* Provide a non-blocking visual way of quickly seeing stray  
influences on the mesh, using numeric values and color or some visual  
flag (and a toggle for that too?).
	** Test for non-contiguous vertex groups (non-blocking display).
* Figure out how to do a better "bone-casting" algorithm, to set up  
weights for bones--- is this needed in blender? Isn't it already  
there with automatic Vertex Group creation?
	** Identify why the automatic vertex selection isn't as useful as  
some want.
* Write down hints and tricks for newbies to learn from?
	** Instruct users to only paint to Green, instead of Red, allowing  
for future adjustment?
	** Others?

So far, AFAIK, these ideas don't boot the existing workflow, but  
complement it.

What more do the experts have to say?

have a nice day.yad
jdpf




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