[Bf-committers] Handling of user data.

Ton Roosendaal ton at blender.org
Tue Apr 11 11:01:07 CEST 2023 

Hi Ray,

Thanks for the reminder. At least I'd like to hear what the status if 
this issue is.

However, I don't have (or want) that kind of control over individual 
tasks in ongoing development. The various modules in Blender should be 
able to act autonomously on this. What I can do is to help the module 
teams to function optimally, for example by finding new talent and/or 
allocate additional budgets.

-Ton-

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ton Roosendaal - ton at blender.org - www.blender.org
Chairman Blender Foundation, CEO Blender Institute / Studio
Buikslotermeerplein 161, 1025 ET Amsterdam, the Netherlands


On 09/04/2023 23:25, Ray Molenkamp via Bf-committers wrote:
> Ton,
>
> It's been nearly a year and we're seemingly still hurting people [1] you're a clever one!
> you only said it deserved priority, not that it would actually get priority, i fell for that one!
>
> I don't see this realistically happening for 3.6, but please I beg you, make it a prio for 4.0
> this really has got to stop.
>
> Greetings,
> Ray
>
> [1]https://www.reddit.com/r/blender/comments/12f8nh9/omg_spent_hours_texture_painting_and_its_gone_any/
>
> On 2022-05-13 7:09 a.m., Ton Roosendaal via Bf-committers wrote:
>> Hi Ray,
>>
>>> deleting the users data without their consent
>>> isn't OK, has never been OK, will never be OK,
>> Fully agree with that.
>>
>> The list of critical issues is way too long. But this deserves top priority for fixing.
>>
>> -Ton-
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Ton Roosendaal -ton at blender.org  -www.blender.org
>> Chairman Blender Foundation, CEO Blender Institute / Studio
>> Buikslotermeerplein 161, 1025 ET Amsterdam, the Netherlands
>>
>>
>> On 12/05/2022 22:17, Ray Molenkamp via Bf-committers wrote:
>>> I don't think there's any disagreement between me and bastien
>>> we both agree it's a problem that just isn't getting the
>>> attention it deserves. The disagreement is with the people who
>>> set the priorities.
>>>
>>> Most of the priories are seemingly set by the needs of the
>>> blender studio, they have learned a long long time ago, how
>>> to "not lose data" to the point it has seemingly become a
>>> out of sight out of heart style problem.
>>>
>>> My somewhat cheeky prod on the mailing list was meant as
>>> a reminder, deleting the users data without their consent
>>> isn't OK, has never been OK, will never be OK, and we should
>>> be fixing it rather than waving it away going "it's fiiine,
>>> work on this instead" it's very much not "fine"
>>>
>>> --Ray
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2022-05-10 2:12 p.m., Zack Brown via Bf-committers wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'm also curious about this issue. It seems like Ray is giving one side of
>>>> the argument, but I'm not clear on the other side. This can't simply be a
>>>> debate between one group that is in favor of destroying user data, and
>>>> another group that opposes it.
>>>>
>>>> Looking at the developer task, it seems like one concern is that any
>>>> solution to the problem would need to take account of workflow issues, so
>>>> that production workflows won't be slowed down. I'd like to hear an example
>>>> of a production workflow that relies on blender's current behavior, and how
>>>> it might be slowed down if the data were simply not deleted instead.
>>>>
>>>> There definitely seems to be something to what Ray says, about saving users
>>>> from a data-loss baptism of fire. And there also seems to be something to
>>>> what Bastien says, about various big projects that currently have a higher
>>>> priority than fixing a standard blender behavior that has always been this
>>>> way. I know there are a lot of features I eagerly look forward to, more
>>>> than fixes for some of the known misfeatures. But I also know that I got
>>>> bit by the inexplicable data-loss issue myself at first, and it was a pain
>>>> in the butt.
>>>>
>>>> Could someone take a stab at explaining what this debate really is about,
>>>> in such a way that both sides would feel fairly represented? All I know
>>>> right now is that there's a disagreement about something that currently
>>>> feels over my head.
>>>>
>>>> Be well,
>>>> Zack
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 9:05 PM Ray Molenkamp via Bf-committers <
>>>> bf-committers at blender.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That task is over 3 years old though, it mostly reconfirms
>>>>> the notion that the people who set the priorities just
>>>>> don't see silently destroying end user data being a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope this short thread serves as a wake-up call and this
>>>>> and the other core improvements you mentioned will be made
>>>>> more of a priority and time will actually be allocated for
>>>>> it in the next release cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I'm not getting my hopes up here.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Ray
>>>>> On 2022-05-10 12:54 a.m., Bastien Montagne via Bf-committers wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Ray,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We already have a task to address this issue:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://developer.blender.org/T61209
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But this needs time to be properly handled, and these days we spend
>>>>> everything besides regular maintenance on 'big projects', so... this one
>>>>> and several other relatively small core improvements and fixes keep being
>>>>> delayed from one release to the other.
>>>>>> -- Bastien
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/9/22 21:12, Ray Molenkamp via Bf-committers wrote:
>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's been years [1] (2018) since I last was rather
>>>>>>> vocal on this subject, but how is this [2] still
>>>>>>> happening? "Yes, blender deleted your data (and silently
>>>>>>> at that), that means it's working correctly!" cannot
>>>>>>> possibly be the best we can do, is it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While I'm excited with all the directions blender
>>>>>>> development is currently going, it's utterly depressing that
>>>>>>> users are still losing data on a daily basis because
>>>>>>> we can't quite get the basics right like "do not delete the
>>>>>>> users data without their consent".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These are *NOT* isolated incidents [3]. Losing your
>>>>>>> data and learning about "the fake user" shouldn't be
>>>>>>> a right of passage to become "a real blender user".
>>>>>>> Users shouldn't be silently *losing* data in an operation
>>>>>>> ironically called *saving*. That's crazy, no other
>>>>>>> application behaves like this!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I know this is how we have always done it. No,
>>>>>>> this is not OK, never was.
>>>>>>>     Ton: Please make protecting the user’s data a
>>>>>>> priority, as it doesn’t seem this will happen otherwise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --Ray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1]https://devtalk.blender.org/t/oh-no/505/2
>>>>>>> [2]https://developer.blender.org/T97968
>>>>>>> [3]https://devtalk.blender.org/t/more/22715
>>>>>>>
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