[Bf-committers] Handling of user data.

[Ray Molenkamp]

Ton,

It's been nearly a year and we're seemingly still hurting people [1] you're a clever one!
you only said it deserved priority, not that it would actually get priority, i fell for that one!

I don't see this realistically happening for 3.6, but please I beg you, make it a prio for 4.0
this really has got to stop.

Greetings,
Ray

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/blender/comments/12f8nh9/omg_spent_hours_texture_painting_and_its_gone_any/

On 2022-05-13 7:09 a.m., Ton Roosendaal via Bf-committers wrote:
> Hi Ray,
>
>> deleting the users data without their consent
>> isn't OK, has never been OK, will never be OK,
>
> Fully agree with that.
>
> The list of critical issues is way too long. But this deserves top priority for fixing.
>
> -Ton-
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ton Roosendaal - ton at blender.org - www.blender.org
> Chairman Blender Foundation, CEO Blender Institute / Studio
> Buikslotermeerplein 161, 1025 ET Amsterdam, the Netherlands
>
>
> On 12/05/2022 22:17, Ray Molenkamp via Bf-committers wrote:
>> I don't think there's any disagreement between me and bastien
>> we both agree it's a problem that just isn't getting the
>> attention it deserves. The disagreement is with the people who
>> set the priorities.
>>
>> Most of the priories are seemingly set by the needs of the
>> blender studio, they have learned a long long time ago, how
>> to "not lose data" to the point it has seemingly become a
>> out of sight out of heart style problem.
>>
>> My somewhat cheeky prod on the mailing list was meant as
>> a reminder, deleting the users data without their consent
>> isn't OK, has never been OK, will never be OK, and we should
>> be fixing it rather than waving it away going "it's fiiine,
>> work on this instead" it's very much not "fine"
>>
>> --Ray
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2022-05-10 2:12 p.m., Zack Brown via Bf-committers wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm also curious about this issue. It seems like Ray is giving one side of
>>> the argument, but I'm not clear on the other side. This can't simply be a
>>> debate between one group that is in favor of destroying user data, and
>>> another group that opposes it.
>>>
>>> Looking at the developer task, it seems like one concern is that any
>>> solution to the problem would need to take account of workflow issues, so
>>> that production workflows won't be slowed down. I'd like to hear an example
>>> of a production workflow that relies on blender's current behavior, and how
>>> it might be slowed down if the data were simply not deleted instead.
>>>
>>> There definitely seems to be something to what Ray says, about saving users
>>> from a data-loss baptism of fire. And there also seems to be something to
>>> what Bastien says, about various big projects that currently have a higher
>>> priority than fixing a standard blender behavior that has always been this
>>> way. I know there are a lot of features I eagerly look forward to, more
>>> than fixes for some of the known misfeatures. But I also know that I got
>>> bit by the inexplicable data-loss issue myself at first, and it was a pain
>>> in the butt.
>>>
>>> Could someone take a stab at explaining what this debate really is about,
>>> in such a way that both sides would feel fairly represented? All I know
>>> right now is that there's a disagreement about something that currently
>>> feels over my head.
>>>
>>> Be well,
>>> Zack
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 9:05 PM Ray Molenkamp via Bf-committers <
>>> bf-committers at blender.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That task is over 3 years old though, it mostly reconfirms
>>>> the notion that the people who set the priorities just
>>>> don't see silently destroying end user data being a problem.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this short thread serves as a wake-up call and this
>>>> and the other core improvements you mentioned will be made
>>>> more of a priority and time will actually be allocated for
>>>> it in the next release cycle.
>>>>
>>>> But I'm not getting my hopes up here.
>>>>
>>>> --Ray
>>>> On 2022-05-10 12:54 a.m., Bastien Montagne via Bf-committers wrote:
>>>>> Hi Ray,
>>>>>
>>>>> We already have a task to address this issue:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://developer.blender.org/T61209
>>>>>
>>>>> But this needs time to be properly handled, and these days we spend
>>>> everything besides regular maintenance on 'big projects', so... this one
>>>> and several other relatively small core improvements and fixes keep being
>>>> delayed from one release to the other.
>>>>> -- Bastien
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/9/22 21:12, Ray Molenkamp via Bf-committers wrote:
>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's been years [1] (2018) since I last was rather
>>>>>> vocal on this subject, but how is this [2] still
>>>>>> happening? "Yes, blender deleted your data (and silently
>>>>>> at that), that means it's working correctly!" cannot
>>>>>> possibly be the best we can do, is it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While I'm excited with all the directions blender
>>>>>> development is currently going, it's utterly depressing that
>>>>>> users are still losing data on a daily basis because
>>>>>> we can't quite get the basics right like "do not delete the
>>>>>> users data without their consent".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These are *NOT* isolated incidents [3]. Losing your
>>>>>> data and learning about "the fake user" shouldn't be
>>>>>> a right of passage to become "a real blender user".
>>>>>> Users shouldn't be silently *losing* data in an operation
>>>>>> ironically called *saving*. That's crazy, no other
>>>>>> application behaves like this!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I know this is how we have always done it. No,
>>>>>> this is not OK, never was.
>>>>>>    Ton: Please make protecting the user’s data a
>>>>>> priority, as it doesn’t seem this will happen otherwise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Ray
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1]https://devtalk.blender.org/t/oh-no/505/2
>>>>>> [2]https://developer.blender.org/T97968
>>>>>> [3]https://devtalk.blender.org/t/more/22715
>>>>>>
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