[Bf-committers] *** RESPECTFULLY NOT SPAM *** Weekly Development Notes Followup

[Monique Dewanchand]

Hello Ton,

Great to read that you are following up on this matter.

I'd like to share my feedback with you so let's do that over a cup of
coffee/tea.
Coming weeks I'm quite busy. I'll send a proposal via email.

kind regards,
Monique

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 5:26 PM Ton Roosendaal via Bf-committers <
bf-committers at blender.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> This was a personal mail to Monique, accidentally sent to the list.
>
> You can use google translate if you're curious, but basically I invited
> Monique to share further feedback on the situation she experienced as
> unwelcoming, and how we can improve. We both live in Amsterdam, we can
> communicate directly easily.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Ton-
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ton Roosendaal - ton at blender.org - www.blender.org
> Chairman Blender Foundation, CEO Blender Institute / Studio
> Buikslotermeerplein 161, 1025 ET Amsterdam, the Netherlands
>
>
> On 05/10/2021 17:15, Ton Roosendaal wrote:
> >
> > Hoi Monique,
> >
> > Ik denk dat jouw feedback belangrijk en welkom is, maar op deze
> > mannier blijft het hangen in vage woorden. Wat is precies gebeurd toen
> > we "hired more and more devs"? Wanneer was dat, na de epic grant?
> >
> > Maar vooral, hoe kunnen we dit beter doen? Ik hoor hier jou graag
> > over, en dat mag ook in privee.
> >
> > De mail van Thomas vind ikzelf to the point. Thomas begint pas
> > officieel (voltijd) in november trouwens. Hij zal nog veel moeten
> inhalen.
> >
> > Groet,
> >
> > -Ton-
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Ton Roosendaal - ton at blender.org - www.blender.org
> > Chairman Blender Foundation, CEO Blender Institute / Studio
> > Buikslotermeerplein 161, 1025 ET Amsterdam, the Netherlands
> >
> >
> > On 24/09/2021 14:48, Monique Dewanchand via Bf-committers wrote:
> >> I think Ryan's remarks raises some valid points.
> >>
> >> Putting words like "sigh" in your reports, to me, is not very
> professional.
> >> As developers we all have had our moments of frustration and sometimes
> >> unwillingly express those.
> >> I hope we can forgive Bastien for this.
> >> However I would expect from a Development Coordinator to notice these
> types
> >> of things and act upon them. But perhaps my expectations are incorrect.
> >> Is someone responsible for the quality of 'official' development
> >> communications (like release notes etc )?
> >>
> >> In my experience, years and years ago, when there were only 2 devs
> >> receiving some minimalistic contributions from Blender, I loved
> >> contributing to Blender.
> >> I found the overall vibe and attitude very pleasant, there was respect,
> >> room for good discussions and constructive criticism. This vibe rapidly
> >> changed when Blender started to hire more and more devs.
> (More)Processes,
> >> rules and regulations made their way into Blender development, all for
> good
> >> reasons, but at the expense of respect, good discussions and
> constructive
> >> criticism.
> >> Contributing to Blender Development had become frustrating for me, so I
> >> stopt and decided to contribute in a different way (teaching Blender and
> >> working on add-ons).
> >>
> >> In recent years I've noticed quite an improvement in the way blender
> >> developers are communicating with "contributors". Is it perfect? Not
> yet.
> >> Is there room for improvement? Yes, but it's definitely better than
> what it
> >> used to be. I do think that contributors are still very valuable for
> >> Blender development so I hope that blender devs, coordinators and
> >> contributors take a bit more care in how they cooperate and communicate.
> >>
> >> kind regards,
> >> Monique
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 12:42 PM Thomas Dinges via Bf-committers <
> >> bf-committers at blender.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Ryan,
> >>>
> >>> I am not Dalai, but as Developer Community Coordinator I will try to
> >>> answer.
> >>>
> >>> 1) As Ankit already mentioned, the message was likely marked as spam by
> >>> some e-mail filter. Nothing more :)
> >>>
> >>> 2) Bastien replied to your mail and explained the situation and the
> >>> reason for his note in the report. He also apologized and confirmed
> that
> >>> it was not meant as a personal attack.
> >>>
> >>> The Blender developers do their best to communicate professionally and
> >>> friendly. In my (round about) 7 years as contributor, in my free time,
> I
> >>> always felt welcome.
> >>> There were of course times, when I disagreed with the decisions made by
> >>> module owners or the admins. At times this was a little bit
> frustrating.
> >>> But the communication was always professional and friendly.
> >>>
> >>> We can of course argue about remarks such as the "(sigh...") in a
> >>> report, but Bastien explained the situation and I don't see a personal
> >>> attack in there, only a little bit of frustration and a remark that is
> >>> human.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>> Thomas
> >>>
> >>> Am 24.09.2021 um 07:59 schrieb Ryan Inch via Bf-committers:
> >>>> Thanks for your quick reply Bastian.  My email wasn't a prompt to be
> >>>> defensive but a request for clarification from Dalai as the Blender
> >>>> Development Coordinator.  Depending on what Dalai says, I'll follow up
> >>>> with your points if need be because this is not about me but how
> >>>> community developers are treated.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dalai, as Blender Development Coordinator, one specific request from
> >>>> the Epic MegaGrant was to make Blender more professional.  I and other
> >>>> community devs and members do not think this kind of notation is
> >>>> professional.  It also disincentivizes engagement between core devs
> >>>> and community devs who do consider this a type of attack.
> >>>>
> >>>> So again, my question to you as the Blender Development Coordinator is
> >>>> 'In what case is it acceptable for a developer to put something like
> >>>> "Spent time on re-explaining/re-investigating T9599 (sigh…)." in their
> >>>> official weekly development notes?' And now, in what case is it
> >>>> acceptable to mark an email asking about such an issue as spam?  I was
> >>>> under the impression that personal attacks were not tolerated?
> >>>>
> >>>> Ryan
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2021-09-21 06:00 AM,bf-committers-request at blender.org  wrote:
> >>>>> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:20:11 +0200
> >>>>> From: Bastien Montagne<montagne29 at wanadoo.fr>
> >>>>> To: Ryan Inch via Bf-committers<bf-committers at blender.org>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] *** SPAM *** Weekly Development Notes
> >>>>>      Followup
> >>>>> Message-ID:<c6100f56-9813-aebe-01ae-5e3b70f578bd at wanadoo.fr>
> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Ryan,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Not sure how you see that as a personal attack? Fact is, I think
> >>>>> spending half a day on something does earns it a note in the weekly
> >>>>> report.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And yes, I was frustrated spending time having to demo the issue
> after
> >>>>> explaining it's cause/source, finding again the exact use case
> >>>>> triggering it, rebuilding both branch and master to ensure it was
> proper
> >>>>> example, etc. We all have (tight) schedules and I was frustrated this
> >>>>> was considered high priority enough to take it over more pressing
> >>>>> matters for Blender 3.0 upcoming BCon2.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I know that expressing personal frustration may not be a good idea,
> but
> >>>>> that does not in any case make it a personal attack, sorry if you
> felt
> >>>>> it like that.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>> Bastien.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 9/21/21 8:49 AM, Ryan Inch via Bf-committers wrote:
> >>>>>> Hello Dalai,
> >>>>>> I missed reading Bastien's weekly notes last week or I would have
> >>>>>> brought this issue up then.  In Bastien's notes for Week 425 - 09/04
> >>>>>> to 09/10, one of his notes is this: "Spent time on
> >>>>>> re-explaining/re-investigating T9599 (sigh…)."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In what case is it acceptable for a developer to put something like
> >>>>>> this in their official weekly development notes?  I was under the
> >>>>>> impression that personal attacks were not tolerated?  (And for the
> >>>>>> record it's D9599 not T)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ryan
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
> >>>>>
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> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> End of Bf-committers Digest, Vol 993, Issue 1
> >>>>> *********************************************
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