[Bf-committers] *** RESPECTFULLY NOT SPAM *** Weekly Development Notes Followup

[Ton Roosendaal]

Hoi Monique,

Ik denk dat jouw feedback belangrijk en welkom is, maar op deze mannier 
blijft het hangen in vage woorden. Wat is precies gebeurd toen we "hired 
more and more devs"? Wanneer was dat, na de epic grant?

Maar vooral, hoe kunnen we dit beter doen? Ik hoor hier jou graag over, 
en dat mag ook in privee.

De mail van Thomas vind ikzelf to the point. Thomas begint pas officieel 
(voltijd) in november trouwens. Hij zal nog veel moeten inhalen.

Groet,

-Ton-

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ton Roosendaal - ton at blender.org - www.blender.org
Chairman Blender Foundation, CEO Blender Institute / Studio
Buikslotermeerplein 161, 1025 ET Amsterdam, the Netherlands


On 24/09/2021 14:48, Monique Dewanchand via Bf-committers wrote:
> I think Ryan's remarks raises some valid points.
>
> Putting words like "sigh" in your reports, to me, is not very professional.
> As developers we all have had our moments of frustration and sometimes
> unwillingly express those.
> I hope we can forgive Bastien for this.
> However I would expect from a Development Coordinator to notice these types
> of things and act upon them. But perhaps my expectations are incorrect.
> Is someone responsible for the quality of 'official' development
> communications (like release notes etc )?
>
> In my experience, years and years ago, when there were only 2 devs
> receiving some minimalistic contributions from Blender, I loved
> contributing to Blender.
> I found the overall vibe and attitude very pleasant, there was respect,
> room for good discussions and constructive criticism. This vibe rapidly
> changed when Blender started to hire more and more devs. (More)Processes,
> rules and regulations made their way into Blender development, all for good
> reasons, but at the expense of respect, good discussions and constructive
> criticism.
> Contributing to Blender Development had become frustrating for me, so I
> stopt and decided to contribute in a different way (teaching Blender and
> working on add-ons).
>
> In recent years I've noticed quite an improvement in the way blender
> developers are communicating with "contributors". Is it perfect? Not yet.
> Is there room for improvement? Yes, but it's definitely better than what it
> used to be. I do think that contributors are still very valuable for
> Blender development so I hope that blender devs, coordinators and
> contributors take a bit more care in how they cooperate and communicate.
>
> kind regards,
> Monique
>
> On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 12:42 PM Thomas Dinges via Bf-committers <
> bf-committers at blender.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ryan,
>>
>> I am not Dalai, but as Developer Community Coordinator I will try to
>> answer.
>>
>> 1) As Ankit already mentioned, the message was likely marked as spam by
>> some e-mail filter. Nothing more :)
>>
>> 2) Bastien replied to your mail and explained the situation and the
>> reason for his note in the report. He also apologized and confirmed that
>> it was not meant as a personal attack.
>>
>> The Blender developers do their best to communicate professionally and
>> friendly. In my (round about) 7 years as contributor, in my free time, I
>> always felt welcome.
>> There were of course times, when I disagreed with the decisions made by
>> module owners or the admins. At times this was a little bit frustrating.
>> But the communication was always professional and friendly.
>>
>> We can of course argue about remarks such as the "(sigh...") in a
>> report, but Bastien explained the situation and I don't see a personal
>> attack in there, only a little bit of frustration and a remark that is
>> human.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Thomas
>>
>> Am 24.09.2021 um 07:59 schrieb Ryan Inch via Bf-committers:
>>> Thanks for your quick reply Bastian.  My email wasn't a prompt to be
>>> defensive but a request for clarification from Dalai as the Blender
>>> Development Coordinator.  Depending on what Dalai says, I'll follow up
>>> with your points if need be because this is not about me but how
>>> community developers are treated.
>>>
>>> Dalai, as Blender Development Coordinator, one specific request from
>>> the Epic MegaGrant was to make Blender more professional.  I and other
>>> community devs and members do not think this kind of notation is
>>> professional.  It also disincentivizes engagement between core devs
>>> and community devs who do consider this a type of attack.
>>>
>>> So again, my question to you as the Blender Development Coordinator is
>>> 'In what case is it acceptable for a developer to put something like
>>> "Spent time on re-explaining/re-investigating T9599 (sigh…)." in their
>>> official weekly development notes?' And now, in what case is it
>>> acceptable to mark an email asking about such an issue as spam?  I was
>>> under the impression that personal attacks were not tolerated?
>>>
>>> Ryan
>>>
>>> On 2021-09-21 06:00 AM, bf-committers-request at blender.org wrote:
>>>> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:20:11 +0200
>>>> From: Bastien Montagne <montagne29 at wanadoo.fr>
>>>> To: Ryan Inch via Bf-committers <bf-committers at blender.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] *** SPAM *** Weekly Development Notes
>>>>      Followup
>>>> Message-ID: <c6100f56-9813-aebe-01ae-5e3b70f578bd at wanadoo.fr>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ryan,
>>>>
>>>> Not sure how you see that as a personal attack? Fact is, I think
>>>> spending half a day on something does earns it a note in the weekly
>>>> report.
>>>>
>>>> And yes, I was frustrated spending time having to demo the issue after
>>>> explaining it's cause/source, finding again the exact use case
>>>> triggering it, rebuilding both branch and master to ensure it was proper
>>>> example, etc. We all have (tight) schedules and I was frustrated this
>>>> was considered high priority enough to take it over more pressing
>>>> matters for Blender 3.0 upcoming BCon2.
>>>>
>>>> I know that expressing personal frustration may not be a good idea, but
>>>> that does not in any case make it a personal attack, sorry if you felt
>>>> it like that.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Bastien.
>>>>
>>>> On 9/21/21 8:49 AM, Ryan Inch via Bf-committers wrote:
>>>>> Hello Dalai,
>>>>> I missed reading Bastien's weekly notes last week or I would have
>>>>> brought this issue up then.  In Bastien's notes for Week 425 - 09/04
>>>>> to 09/10, one of his notes is this: "Spent time on
>>>>> re-explaining/re-investigating T9599 (sigh…)."
>>>>>
>>>>> In what case is it acceptable for a developer to put something like
>>>>> this in their official weekly development notes?  I was under the
>>>>> impression that personal attacks were not tolerated?  (And for the
>>>>> record it's D9599 not T)
>>>>>
>>>>> Ryan
>>>>>
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>>>> End of Bf-committers Digest, Vol 993, Issue 1
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