[Bf-committers] Blender developers meeting minutes - February 27, 2016

Sat Feb 27 20:40:48 CET 2016

I am also one that wanted to make small edits but decide not to deal with
the overhead. I got luck and now I just send bug reports to Aaron Carlisle
and he fixes it for me but clearly not everyone will have this option.

Wikipedia has a system where the edits can be checked by an editor before
they are committed. Seems to me to be a good system and it clearly works.

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Sergey Sharybin <sergey.vfx at gmail.com>
wrote:

> So the actual issue is a lack of coordination work for contributors and the
> reason why Manual is still in a reasonable shape is simply only because all
> the contributors are scared away and now it's 1.5 people only working on
> it.
>
> f we'll do better coordination work, then Wiki documentation will not be a
> disaster at all.
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Aaron Carlisle <carlisle.b3d at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >  > IMO the new Sphinx-based solution presents too much of an initial
> > > barrier to entry.
> >
> > This may be true and first however, once the environment gets setup
> > It is really easy especially if you are using a GUI SVN client like Smart
> > SVN
> > In order to look at this correctly you need to see the arguments from
> both
> > sides.
> > These can be found on the new manual [1]. One of the reasons for the wiki
> > disaster
> > Is that too many people would edit which resulted in some bad content
> > and over redundant text.
> >
> >
> > 1. https://www.blender.org/manual/about/migration.html
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Campbell Barton <ideasman42 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 10:22 PM, Sergey Sharybin <
> sergey.vfx at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I will strongly suggest to ignore Phabricators Wiki for the following
> > > > reasons:
> > > >
> > >
> > > It was mentioned as a possible alternative.
> > >
> > > > - It is not nearly as comprehensive as Mediawiki
> > > > - Editing policies in Phabricator are still quite limiting, meaning
> > > > granting someone's editing role for Wiki would either mean we
> manually
> > > > control this (which is same as current "Please mail us if you need
> Wiki
> > > > access" bullshit), or we'll effectively allow everyone to edit any
> > object
> > > > in our tracker which is not acceptable.
> > > > - There's no comprehensive anti-spam tools in Phabricator.
> > > > - Search is kinda pathetic
> > > >
> > > > Only argument for the Phabricator's wiki i currently see is that you
> > only
> > > > need one developer account to do the code and documentation. The
> truth
> > > is:
> > > > _any_ current developer has a Wiki account, yet it does not help
> > keeping
> > > > documentation in an up-to- state. So the issue of out-of-date
> > > documentation
> > > > is clearly somewhere else. (and if it's really an account issue, we
> can
> > > > teach wiki.b.o to login with dev.b.o accounts).
> > > >
> > > > Let me ask this question: why would we keep diverging documentation
> > from
> > > > one single place (which is wiki.b.o) to a multiple ones (currently
> it's
> > > > b.o/manual, and also proposed move of developer's documentation
> > somewhere
> > > > else)? I don't see such a diverge making documentation any easier to
> > find
> > > > or any easier to maintain.
> > > >
> > >
> > > We don't - and think using a wiki for developer docs is reasonable to
> > > stick with.
> > >
> > > > I do see however bullshit happening on current wiki.b.o, all this
> > > anti-spam
> > > > things which are done in really lazy way. But that only means our
> wiki
> > > > itself is to be changed. Truth here is, it's a _really_ old mediawiki
> > > > install which is just getting rotten. We can not upgrade it easily
> > > because
> > > > of the tree navigation, which required hacks all over the code. As
> for
> > > me,
> > > > we should evaluate such proposal instead:
> > > >
> > >
> > > The way we handle Wiki accounts is quite broken,
> > > for a while I was getting mails from `wiki at blender dot org`,
> > > and we got regular mails with people who wanted to just learn Blender,
> > > where I'm not even sure they knew what the wiki account was for.
> > > Sometimes their English was poor so it wasn't really clear why they
> > > wanted access.
> > >
> > > > - Re-consider navigation in Wiki, avoid having hacks to try support
> > > > navigation which was barely useful
> > > > - Prepare fully fresh install of Wiki (new engine, new web server
> > > settings
> > > > optimized for today's standards and so on)
> > > > - Install skin which we'll find acceptable (this is the most tedious
> > > work,
> > > > we'll need someone to work on the skin and it's not so simple for
> > > Mediawiki
> > > > i've heard)
> > > > - Migrate the content to a new Wiki
> > > > - Re-evaluate state of the documents in there, wipe out-of-date ones
> > > >
> > > > Benefits:
> > > >
> > > > - This keeps use of documentation the same as it always was
> > > > - This does not scare actual editors with wither fully offline
> editing
> > > > - Let's everyone (new developers, old develeoprs, non-developers) to
> > have
> > > > project/design proposals in there, which are then simple to move to
> an
> > > > actual documentation/release notes
> > > > - Keeps release notes, release cycle, ongoing projects, personal
> > > > notes/design proposal/drafts in a single place.
> > > >
> > > > Simplified proposal: we can just ignore all history in existing Wiki
> > and
> > > > simply start a new one. Even with a default skin it will not be less
> > > usable
> > > > than default sphinx/phabricator wikis.
> > > >
> > > > In any case, we would _have_ to update wiki sooner than later, and it
> > > will
> > > > bring it back to an usable state. Now, please stop for a moment from
> > all
> > > > your "let's split stuff apart" proposal and outline _actual_ problems
> > > which
> > > > _can not_ be solved in a context of having fresh and working
> wiki.b.o,
> > > what
> > > > will be the benefits of that move and so on.
> > >
> > > +1 (and something we've discussed/agreed on informally).
> > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 2:26 AM, Campbell Barton <
> ideasman42 at gmail.com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi, here are the notes from today's meeting in irc.freenode.net
> > > >> #blendercoders.
> > > >>
> > > >> 1) Upcoming release
> > > >>
> > > >> So far things go smooth with 2.77rc1, reminder that release notes
> need
> > > >> attention still.
> > > >>
> > > >> - Mike Erwin will do OpenGL release notes.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> 2) Current projects
> > > >>
> > > >> - Developers confirm that after 2.77 we should *stop* focusing
> > > >>   on 2.7x and move attention to bigger 2.8x projects.
> > > >>   However discussion shows we still need more concrete planning.
> > > >>
> > > >> - UI team will start having its own meetings,
> > > >>   current plan is to hold after next developer meeting.
> > > >>   Will be announced on the bf-committers mailing list.
> > > >>
> > > >> - UI project has _many_ open tasks with discussion and no
> conclusion,
> > > >>   these tasks could use some decisions from UI design leads.
> > > >>   (or archive if theirs no clear outcome and nobody has time for
> > them).
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> 3) Other Projects
> > > >>
> > > >> - Kevin Dietrich has begun work on the DwarfLabs Alembic patch,
> > > >>   plans to move development to a branch and update to support
> > > >>   import/export based on suggested changes in review.
> > > >>   https://developer.blender.org/D1783
> > > >>
> > > >> - @Blendify proposes to migrate developer documentation to new
> system
> > > >>   (and help with the migration),
> > > >>   https://developer.blender.org/T47563
> > > >>
> > > >>   However others in meeting prefer further discussion
> > > >>   on mailing list before going ahead and making changes
> > > >>   (evaluate Phabricator's Wiki for developer docs for eg).
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> - Campbell
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Bf-committers mailing list
> > > >> Bf-committers at blender.org
> > > >> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > With best regards, Sergey Sharybin
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Bf-committers mailing list
> > > > Bf-committers at blender.org
> > > > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Campbell
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bf-committers mailing list
> > > Bf-committers at blender.org
> > > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bf-committers mailing list
> > Bf-committers at blender.org
> > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> >
>
>
>
> --
> With best regards, Sergey Sharybin
> _______________________________________________
> Bf-committers mailing list
> Bf-committers at blender.org
> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>

-- 
Douglas E Knapp, MSAOM, LAc.