[Bf-committers] blender UI state

Campbell Barton ideasman42 at gmail.com
Sat Jan 21 00:46:36 CET 2012


Many valid & interesting points made in the last few replies but could
we steer this back onto improving our existing UI?
(not the dreaded `defaults` discussion)

There are enough simple problems we should deal with,

Example of one -

Andrew Hale made this example recently,
http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=24723

This brings up the point that check-box buttons (on the right) dont
get grouped nicely,
Yet, I'm Told Matt Ebb wanted the check-boxes to be preferred.

Anyone interested to knock up a drawing of how the layout of the left
could work with check-boxes better?

 - (C'mon guys!, less talk, more action, or I go back and hide in the
python api  :D )


On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Mike Erwin <significant.bit at gmail.com> wrote:
> There are many ways to make blender less aggravating for new users,
> but as has been said, anything this powerful will have some kind of
> learning curve. It's a hassle, it's to be expected, and it's worth it!
> If you read a few paragraphs, I promise to make a point or three.
>
> Photoshop for example -- when I started with version 4, it was a bit
> overwhelming. Over the years and versions I picked up skills like
> painting, layers & color channels just by using the software. The
> biggest jumps came when I picked up a book to get a new perspective on
> issues (the power of selection & masking for example). And how to use
> the pen tool, which for some reason I never could figure out on my
> own.
>
> Same goes for driving a car! It has only a few controls of course, but
> even so there is no expectation that you'll be an expert driver the
> first time out. By the time you get behind the wheel, you've probably
> observed hundreds of hours by being driven around during childhood.
> And there is probably someone beside you saying "that's the
> accelerator, that's the brake, don't touch those." When the windshield
> wipers are swinging back and forth when you meant to use the turn
> signal, you could say "f*** this, I'll just walk from now on!" Or you
> could say "oops, wrong lever", remember that for next time, and keep
> driving. To reward your patience, you get a free open-source car with
> a lifetime supply of free gas.
>
> Same for any musical instrument. The first time you pick it up, it's
> going to sound pretty bad. If you never play again because music is
> hard, well... ok. This metaphor is a bit loose, since blender has
> competitors. It's like blender = guitar and [other 3D software] =
> piano. They both make music if you know how to move your fingers the
> right way! And they both take practice to get to that point. If you
> already know the piano, and expect those skills to transfer to the
> guitar, get ready for a shock. But if you don't know either, might as
> well go for the one that's portable and let's face it, way more cool.
>
> Ok, now it's blender's turn -- without the silly metaphors. Blender
> 2.1 was my first encounter. I played around with it a little while,
> found the interface confusing (and kind of ugly compared to the rest
> of MacOS), and quickly went back to PiXELS 3D. Next encounter was
> blender 2.3 -- got the book this time (which was awesome), learned a
> tiny bit more but soon went back to Lightwave (which also had a book).
> A few years ago I had to digitally recreate a football stadium from
> its plans and by visiting the site. After a slow and painful start
> using Sketchup, I gave blender 2.48 a shot and actually liked it! But
> by then I was serious about learning and got the Essential Blender
> book, which helped more than anything. After that I would just search
> for specific things and always found someone who had run across the
> same issue and written about it. The interface in late 2.4x was very
> different and very nice. After a custom layout, color scheme and style
> it looked awesome and worked well. And yes, I switched it to LMB
> select.
>
> I have no specific gripes with the current interface, but as I stick
> mostly to low-poly modeling there is plenty I don't ever see. 2.6 is
> also very different and (mostly) very nice; I've even switched back to
> RMB select! My own default layout discards the timeline, and shows
> "object data" instead of "render" on the properties panel, but
> otherwise is standard. That works for me, but I wouldn't dare force it
> on everyone. Having the "render image" button there on the screen is
> essential for the brief time before you know what F12 does. The
> spacebar addon is great, don't know why it's not part of the default
> setup.
>
> Any changes need to be well thought out and explained -- more than "I
> think X is better than Y so obviously everyone would like X." Why is X
> better? Prove it or demonstrate it or otherwise make a solid case.
>
> Many people do like to learn by trial & error, so make sure the errors
> are harmless, obvious, and reversible. I haven't kept up with the undo
> system recently, so maybe this has been fixed... but it used to fill
> up with system-initiated snapshots, so undo kind of lost meaning.
> Whenever you pressed [button], blender would do 5 things, 3 of them
> undo-able. So you press [button], say "oops", undo, then wonder why
> the stuff on screen doesn't look exactly the same as before you
> pressed [button].
>
> Reasonable default values and ranges for things are easy to implement
> and make things just a little nicer for new users. No idea how well
> this is done throughout blender, it might already be perfect. Same for
> basic interaction settings like turntable mode becoming default (a
> good move, even though I usually use trackball). Making "rotate around
> selection" default? My initial impression is "yes, of course!" but
> like I said above, we still need to answer "why?" in some convincing
> way.
>
> Remember Ubuntu had its "papercuts" project to fix many of the rough
> edges and little annoyances for desktop Linux. This thread (and
> similar ones before) sounds like a call to do the same sort of thing
> for blender. Of course their path led to the Unity desktop... a great
> example that making things simpler for new users can also make it
> infuriating for people that know what they're doing. The designers of
> Unity have the best intentions -- they're just not right.
>
> In the end, blender's UI is for people who use blender, not for people
> who don't. There were things about blender that kept me in this second
> category for so many years, so I fully understand the original point
> of this thread. Of course we want new people to use blender. Some
> things have changed for today's potential users -- the sleek/modern UI
> appearance is one less barrier -- but how you get things done once
> inside is different from other apps. I got past this, so it's hard for
> me to single out what is or isn't difficult for a newcomer. I'm in the
> semi-new-user category: comfortable with general usage and a limited
> set of the available tools. So more important to me (and I imagine
> others in this boat) is how to grow, the path to becoming "more
> expert". Nothing inside of blender is keeping me from doing this, from
> my particular point on the learning curve. We also need experts on the
> high end to show us what can be done with this great software in the
> right hands. I don't think today's top users would walk away from
> blender if we add some new options or change defaults, as long as it
> doesn't mess up their flow. So let's do this in a way that doesn't
> mess up their flow.
>
> I'm interested to see what new options come out of this discussion,
> and which of these are chosen for defaults. But I'd also like to keep
> the overall number of options small, with meaningful differences
> between them. One shining example of an interface that keeps things
> simple, has limited options, all while remaining powerful for experts
> is MacOS (8.6 and 10.6 being the finest). MacOS 10.0 had some serious
> UI gaps, just like blender 2.5 at first, but both are growing up
> nicely. Brainstorming 1000 options is great, let's make sure only the
> best ones make it into a release, and are implemented based on these
> discussions and properly tuned after some hands-on time.
>
> Also, +5 on monkey head in default scene!
>
> Mike Erwin
> musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire
>
>
>
>> On Friday 20 January 2012, Jorge Rodriguez wrote:
>>> I'd like Blender to be learnable without people having to go watch
>>> tutorials.
>
>> Not possible (IMO). Blender, like any other 3D software, is far too complex to
>> be picked up on the fly.
>>
>> I can't understand why reading docs or watching tutorials is so awful. If
>> somebody opens Blender and feels lost (as did I many years ago), what's so
>> hard about clicking on the help menu, choosing the first entry and starting
>> to read? While the manual also needs work, the introductory chapters should
>> be enough to get anybody started. If not, the community provides free help.
>> That's how open source projects work.
>>
>> If somebody can't do that, I don't think he/she has enough drive to learn a 3D
>> software anyway.
>>
>> As a user, I'm very grateful for Blender and also for the documentation we do
>> have. People really should use it.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Sanne
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-- 
- Campbell


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