[Bf-committers] Tool Shelf Toggling On/Off Tab Mockup
Ton Roosendaal
ton at blender.org
Tue Jun 14 11:22:04 CEST 2011
Hi,
In the early 2.50 period I coded miniature tabs, then simply draw as
triangles.
Such small tabs, woldithout text, a bit nicer styled & drawn, on a
consistent & useful location it's still better than the (+) icons imho.
-Ton-
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation ton at blender.org www.blender.org
Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands
On 14 Jun, 2011, at 3:17, Luke Frisken wrote:
> Oops, sorry Jim, I meant the compose mail interface rather than the
> inbox. Either way, I might have a shot at implementing ideas suggested
> here, as I have more time this holidays.
>
> On 6/13/11, Jim Williams <sphere1952 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've nothing against icons as an option that can be toggled on/off
>> (or
>> at least minimized) in order to get more real estate. I just object
>> to them as the initial, only, or default interface.
>>
>> (BTW -- My Gmail is all buttons and text.)
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Luke Frisken <l.frisken at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> I think you are right in one sense. But, I look up here at a
>>> toolbar in my
>>> gmail and see icons that I have never clicked on and I'm pretty
>>> sure I
>>> know
>>> what they do. I'd call that self explanatory... I guess it takes a
>>> knowledge
>>> before hand of the function, or a previous encounter with a similar
>>> looking
>>> icon to be able to guess what it means. So, for a tool shelf you
>>> could use
>>> something that looks like a tool... Either way it can be hard to
>>> guess
>>> exactly what it is, even after clicking on it, or finding it in a
>>> menu and
>>> clicking on it; like you suggest. This is where tooltips are
>>> fantastic at
>>> filling in the gap between proper wiki documentation, and none at
>>> all. It
>>> allows people who know vaguely what they are doing to have a
>>> better guess
>>> at
>>> what the function is supposed to do.
>>>
>>> The sense in which I think you are certainly right is that the
>>> current
>>> menu hierarchy is the standard way of finding this functionality,
>>> and is
>>> something we shouldn't change, because many users rely on this to
>>> find
>>> what
>>> they need, and this is also standard behaviour in any software.
>>> This is a
>>> good thing I think. Buuut, the thing is, that T and the N panel are
>>> toggled
>>> on and off very frequently in my workflow (and I would guess others,
>>> because
>>> otherwise this issue wouldn't have been raised), so having as
>>> a separate icon in the corner, (like where the plus sign was),
>>> would help
>>> greatly for people who prefer to use the mouse (less clicks and
>>> mouse
>>> movement required), and be an even bigger improvement for people
>>> who use
>>> the
>>> tablet. Or, do we want to take the direction of favouring keyboard
>>> support?
>>> I'm not personally against that, but I know people who are better at
>>> remembering positions of icons than random letters on a keyboard.
>>> I think
>>> I
>>> can guess T, but what does N even stand for!? For Non-English, or
>>> English
>>> as
>>> a second language users I reckon this would be even harder,
>>> because they
>>> would have a harder time guessing what T stood for and associating
>>> it with
>>> the functionality in blender.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Jim Williams <sphere1952 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have never found any icon scheme self-explanatory. I think
>>>> absolutely everything should be available through a menu
>>>> hierarchy so
>>>> everyone, even beginners, knows that there is at least one way to
>>>> find
>>>> anything. (I do mean everything, including text fields,
>>>> checkboxes,
>>>> and dropdowns. It doesn't have to be a shallow hierarchy.) If you
>>>> have that then you can provide the hotkeys in the menu and do
>>>> everything with hotkeys and pop-ups too. People will look up the
>>>> hotkeys in the menu and learn them for anything they use a lot. If
>>>> you don't have everything on a menu then there will be a constant
>>>> stream of questions asking where and how for simple stuff. With
>>>> everything somewhere on a menu people will groan and hunt it down.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:59 AM, Felix Schlitter
>>>> <felixschlitter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I couldn't agree more with Michael. Hotkeys for restoring
>>>>> headers, or
>>>>> locking them would be wonderful!
>>>>>
>>>>> And on topic: I also never use the toolshelf for anything during
>>>> modelling
>>>>> other than getting access to the operator panel. F6 is awesome
>>>>> but it
>>>> would
>>>>> be more convenient to have it sitting in a compact shelf
>>>>> (especially
>>>>> for
>>>>> complex operators like the tree generator and stuff).
>>>>>
>>>>> I like the proposal, however it would mean that the user has to
>>>>> learn
>>>>> yet
>>>>> another hotkey or move the mouse all the way over. Atm, I kinda
>>>>> like
>>>>> the
>>>>> whole N/T hotkey scenario where I press the T, which lays on the
>>>>> left
>>>> side
>>>>> of the keyboard (for english keyboards anyway) to hide the left
>>>>> sidebar
>>>> and
>>>>> vice versa.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe a "Maya toolshelf" could be taken into consideration,
>>>>> which sits
>>>>> on
>>>>> top of the screen and can also be hidden like a header. Then we
>>>>> could
>>>>> use
>>>>> icons instead of text in order to save space. We would just need
>>>>> to
>>>>> make
>>>>> sure that the icons are a bit more self explanatory than those
>>>>> used in
>>>> Maya.
>>>>> Then the operator would sit in the left sidebar by itself, or
>>>>> could get
>>>>> company some of the items from the right toolbar.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just an idea
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:44 PM, michael williamson <
>>>>> michaelw at cowtoolsmedia.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sadly there's no key to restore a minimised header! (they're
>>>>>> all to
>>>>>> easy
>>>>>> to close when using a tablet with no way to restore in the cycles
>>>>>> branch! (for headers I'd like to see the old 2.49 way and disable
>>>>>> minimising them....)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ON TOPIC,
>>>>>> I'd prefer tool props to be its own panel.... it's too small
>>>>>> when at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> bottom of the toolshelf I always use F6 in preference....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The toolshelf itself is invaluable in paint, sculpt etc but
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> don't use ever when modelling... the operator panel on the
>>>>>> other hand
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> something I'd very much like to have on screen all the time when
>>>>>> modelling but hardly ever when painting!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I only mention to illustrate that people are different and like
>>>>>> different things and a flexible UI should accommodate ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/06/11 10:01, M.G. Kishalmi wrote:
>>>>>>> I like how Brecht solved this in the cycles branch:
>>>>>>> he removed the (+) icons all together.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there are keys for props [N] and tools [T]
>>>>>>> and menu entries (in view) for all 3.
>>>>>>> maybe we can simply add a key for tool-props? suggestion: [ALT]
>>>>>>> +[N]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> or maybe.. don't allow the tool-props to be hidden at all?
>>>>>>> just find a way to have it sit there at the top/bottom of the
>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>> nicely.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>>> mario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:19 AM, Jonathan Smith<j.jaydez at gmail.com
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> You are probably right, using a lot of space doesn't seem to
>>>>>>>> be the
>>>> best
>>>>>>>> answer.. back to drawing board.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 11:31 PM, Jim
>>>>>>>> Williams<sphere1952 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd agree. Find ways to use less real estate, not more.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Aurel W.<aurel.w at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think that this would be rather unpractical, it takes way
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>> visual space for what it represents. If i want to collapse
>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>> panels, i want them gone, not taking a lot of space on the
>>>>>>>>>> screen
>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>> those huge buttons.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Blenders gui already got way too unefficient in 2.5,
>>>>>>>>>> especially
>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>> it comes to, space needed for certain gui elements and
>>>>>>>>>> panels.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> aurel
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 12 June 2011 13:28, Jonathan Smith<j.jaydez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I have written up a mockup/proposal on a different way to
>>>>>>>>>>> do the
>>>>>> closing
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> opening of the Tool Shelf and Properties Shelf UI, other
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>> using
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> little plus icons, on my talk page.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://wiki.blender.org/index.php?title=User_talk:JayDez
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am, unfortunately, not a good enough coder to actually
>>>>>>>>>>> implement
>>>>>> this,
>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm just putting it out there as an idea, either for another
>>>>>>>>>>> coder
>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> implement, or just to promote discussion about the way this
>>>>>>>>>>> works,
>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't think that it is done very well in the current
>>>>>>>>>>> version of
>>>>>> Blender.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Any comments on or critiques of the mock up would be
>>>>>>>>>>> welcome.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>> Bf-committers at blender.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> No essence. No permanence. No perfection. Only action.
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>
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>> From Luke
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