[Bf-committers] Tool Shelf Toggling On/Off Tab Mockup

Luke Frisken l.frisken at gmail.com
Mon Jun 13 15:25:13 CEST 2011 

I think you are right in one sense. But, I look up here at a toolbar in my
gmail and see icons that I have never clicked on and I'm pretty sure I know
what they do. I'd call that self explanatory... I guess it takes a knowledge
before hand of the function, or a previous encounter with a similar looking
icon to be able to guess what it means. So, for a tool shelf you could use
something that looks like a tool... Either way it can be hard to guess
exactly what it is, even after clicking on it, or finding it in a menu and
clicking on it; like you suggest. This is where tooltips are fantastic at
filling in the gap between proper wiki documentation, and none at all. It
allows people who know vaguely what they are doing to have a better guess at
what the function is supposed to do.

The sense in which I think you are certainly right is that the current
menu hierarchy is the standard way of finding this functionality, and is
something we shouldn't change, because many users rely on this to find what
they need, and this is also standard behaviour in any software. This is a
good thing I think. Buuut, the thing is, that T and the N panel are toggled
on and off very frequently in my workflow (and I would guess others, because
otherwise this issue wouldn't have been raised), so having as
a separate icon in the corner, (like where the plus sign was), would help
greatly for people who prefer to use the mouse (less clicks and mouse
movement required), and be an even bigger improvement for people who use the
tablet. Or, do we want to take the direction of favouring keyboard support?
I'm not personally against that, but I know people who are better at
remembering positions of icons than random letters on a keyboard. I think I
can guess T, but what does N even stand for!? For Non-English, or English as
a second language users I reckon this would be even harder, because they
would have a harder time guessing what T stood for and associating it with
the functionality in blender.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Jim Williams <sphere1952 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have never found any icon scheme self-explanatory.  I think
> absolutely everything should be available through a menu hierarchy so
> everyone, even beginners, knows that there is at least one way to find
> anything.  (I do mean everything, including text fields, checkboxes,
> and dropdowns.  It doesn't have to be a shallow hierarchy.)  If you
> have that then you can provide the hotkeys in the menu and do
> everything with hotkeys and pop-ups too. People will look up the
> hotkeys in the menu and learn them for anything they use a lot.  If
> you don't have everything on a menu then there will be a constant
> stream of questions asking where and how for simple stuff.  With
> everything somewhere on a menu people will groan and hunt it down.
>
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:59 AM, Felix Schlitter
> <felixschlitter at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I couldn't agree more with Michael. Hotkeys for restoring headers, or
> > locking them would be wonderful!
> >
> > And on topic: I also never use the toolshelf for anything during
> modelling
> > other than getting access to the operator panel. F6 is awesome but it
> would
> > be more convenient to have it sitting in a compact shelf (especially for
> > complex operators like the tree generator and stuff).
> >
> > I like the proposal, however it would mean that the user has to learn yet
> > another hotkey or move the mouse all the way over. Atm, I kinda like the
> > whole N/T hotkey scenario where I press the T, which lays on the left
> side
> > of the keyboard (for english keyboards anyway) to hide the left sidebar
> and
> > vice versa.
> >
> > Maybe a "Maya toolshelf" could be taken into consideration, which sits on
> > top of the screen and can also be hidden like a header. Then we could use
> > icons instead of text in order to save space. We would just need to make
> > sure that the icons are a bit more self explanatory than those used in
> Maya.
> > Then the operator would sit in the left sidebar by itself, or could get
> > company some of the items from the right toolbar.
> >
> > Just an idea
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:44 PM, michael williamson <
> > michaelw at cowtoolsmedia.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Sadly there's no key to restore a minimised header! (they're all to easy
> >> to close when using a tablet with no way to restore in the cycles
> >> branch! (for headers I'd like to see the old 2.49 way and disable
> >> minimising them....)
> >>
> >> ON TOPIC,
> >> I'd prefer tool props to be its own panel.... it's too small when at the
> >> bottom of the toolshelf  I always use F6 in preference....
> >>
> >> The toolshelf itself is invaluable in paint, sculpt etc but something I
> >> don't use ever when modelling... the operator panel on the other hand is
> >> something I'd very much like to have on screen all the time when
> >> modelling but hardly ever when painting!
> >>
> >>  I only mention to illustrate that people are different and like
> >> different things and a flexible UI should accommodate ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >> On 13/06/11 10:01, M.G. Kishalmi wrote:
> >> > I like how Brecht solved this in the cycles branch:
> >> >   he removed the (+) icons all together.
> >> >
> >> > there are keys for props [N] and tools [T]
> >> >   and menu entries (in view) for all 3.
> >> > maybe we can simply add a key for tool-props? suggestion: [ALT]+[N]
> >> >
> >> > or maybe.. don't allow the tool-props to be hidden at all?
> >> >   just find a way to have it sit there at the top/bottom of the tools
> >> nicely.
> >> >
> >> > cheers,
> >> >   mario
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:19 AM, Jonathan Smith<j.jaydez at gmail.com>
> >>  wrote:
> >> >> You are probably right, using a lot of space doesn't seem to be the
> best
> >> >> answer.. back to drawing board.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 11:31 PM, Jim Williams<sphere1952 at gmail.com>
> >>  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> I'd agree.  Find ways to use less real estate, not more.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Aurel W.<aurel.w at gmail.com>
>  wrote:
> >> >>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I think that this would be rather unpractical, it takes way to much
> >> >>>> visual space for what it represents. If i want to collapse those
> >> >>>> panels, i want them gone, not taking a lot of space on the screen
> like
> >> >>>> those huge buttons.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Blenders gui already got way too unefficient in 2.5, especially
> when
> >> >>>> it comes to, space needed for certain gui elements and panels.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> aurel
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On 12 June 2011 13:28, Jonathan Smith<j.jaydez at gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> >>>>> I have written up a mockup/proposal on a different way to do the
> >> closing
> >> >>> and
> >> >>>>> opening of the Tool Shelf and Properties Shelf UI, other than
> using
> >> the
> >> >>>>> little plus icons, on my talk page.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> http://wiki.blender.org/index.php?title=User_talk:JayDez
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I am, unfortunately, not a good enough coder to actually implement
> >> this,
> >> >>> so
> >> >>>>> I'm just putting it out there as an idea, either for another coder
> to
> >> >>>>> implement, or just to promote discussion about the way this works,
> >> since
> >> >>> I
> >> >>>>> don't think that it is done very well in the current version of
> >> Blender.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Any comments on or critiques of the mock up would be welcome.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Cheers,
> >> >>>>> Jonathan
> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >> >>>>>
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> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
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>
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-- 
>From Luke

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