[Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted

M.G. Kishalmi lmg at kishalmi.net
Tue Feb 22 23:23:35 CET 2011 

further I plan to add

[invert image colors]
[invert red channel]
[invert green channel]
[invert blue channel]
[invert alpha channel] ???

operators to the image editor.
they can be used to adjust old bakes or imported normalmaps
and might even prove useful under other circumstances.

cheers,
 mario


On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Morten Mikkelsen <mikkelsen7 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Before changing everything again, can we go back to the revision that
>> introduced the change in the first place and maybe understand why it was
>> done? There was probably a reason, even >if it wasn't a good one,
>> understanding why might be useful.
>>
>
> We already know exactly what is going on. We know exactly how and why the
> channels have to be set. I promise you. It will conform to the standard that
> is most common.
> The old spaces didn't support a real binormal (meaning +/- sign was not
> maintained). It was rather broken as it was. It was almost luck whether you
> got one thing or another.
> This is also why it was essentially useless for exporting any normal map out
> of blender.
> A new system has already been put in place which replaces the generated
> tangent spaces. These support mirroring and
> a sign +/-1 to create a bitangent with the correct orientation. This is not
> something mindlessly thrown in at the last minute.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> --- On Tue, 2/22/11, Sean Olson <seanolson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > From: Sean Olson <seanolson at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
>> > To: "bf-blender developers" <bf-committers at blender.org>
>> > Received: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 4:35 PM
>> > I also could not agree
>> > more.   Some standardization here would get
>> > rid of
>> > plenty of headaches.  To be clear, the step that I
>> > would like to avoid is
>> > under:
>> > "GIMPing the image" on this page:
>> > http://www.foro3d.com/f217/blender-normal-mapping-76567.html
>> >
>> > (It's basically just instructing to invert the green
>> > channel)
>> >
>> > <http://www.foro3d.com/f217/blender-normal-mapping-76567.html>I
>> > believe it
>> > worked this way in 2.49 and currently works this way also
>> > though I have not
>> > tested very recently.
>> >
>> > If I recall the results of the last mailing list
>> > conversation on this
>> > subject, the consensus was that there is no 'standard' on
>> > ways to do normal
>> > mapping so Blender's is as good as anybody else's, and is
>> > not technically
>> > 'wrong'.  The problem is that most of the other apps
>> > have standardized in
>> > 'the other method'.  I tried tracking the email thread
>> > down, but after about
>> > an hour of digging have given up.
>> >
>> > -Sean
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Morten Mikkelsen <mikkelsen7 at gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> > > >
>> > > > >Make it standard please, nmaps are something
>> > that you usually share
>> > > > >between softwares. no point in forcing
>> > headaches to users
>> > > >
>> > > > >Daniel Salazar
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > May your first born be a son and may your harvest be
>> > plentiful!! :)
>> > > I could not agree more. That's exactly why this patch
>> > needs to go in asap.
>> > > Normal maps are indeed typically exported between
>> > tools.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > 2011/2/22 Knapp <magick.crow at gmail.com>:
>> > > > > Just provide an external tool or add-on to
>> > fix the files. Perhaps pop
>> > > up
>> > > > a
>> > > > > warning: this file has a broken bump-map,
>> > run XXX to fix it.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Thomas
>> > Dinges <blender at dingto.de>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> I wouldn't do a hackish button either,
>> > if it works correct as in 2.49
>> > > > >> it's fine and all we need.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Am 22.02.2011 19:33, schrieb Ton
>> > Roosendaal:
>> > > > >> > Hi all,
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > The situation is worse apparently;
>> > up to Blender 2.49 the normal
>> > > maps
>> > > > >> > were fine, but the "newbump" patch
>> > in 2.51 made red channel become
>> > > > >> > badly inverted.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Having it work like in 2.49 is of
>> > course correct. Brings up the
>> > > > >> > question if we should provide a
>> > hackish button to support bad normal
>> > > > >> > maps created in the alpha/beta
>> > period.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Morton's&  Mario's
>> > proposal is to not do this. I agree, it only
>> > > makes
>> > > > >> > UI uglier... :)
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > -Ton-
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >
>> > > >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > >> > Ton Roosendaal  Blender
>> > Foundation   ton at blender.org
>> > > > www.blender.org
>> > > > >> > Blender
>> > Institute   Entrepotdok 57A  1018AD
>> > Amsterdam   The
>> > > > Netherlands
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > On 20 Feb, 2011, at 14:45, Dalai
>> > Felinto wrote:
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >> Instead of "old Blender Normal
>> > maps" couldn't it be "invert color
>> > > > >> >> channels [tooltip: old Blender
>> > Normal Maps - invert red/green
>> > > > >> >> channels"? Or Blender was
>> > really the only software out there using
>> > > > >> >> those inverted?
>> > > > >> >>
>> > > > >> >> I remember this being discussed
>> > a while ago (1year or +) but don't
>> > > > >> >> remember what was the outcome
>> > of it.
>> > > > >> >>
>> > > > >> >> --
>> > > > >> >> Dalai
>> > > > >> >>
>> > > > >> >> 2011/2/20 Ton Roosendaal<ton at blender.org>:
>> > > > >> >>> Hi,
>> > > > >> >>>
>> > > > >> >>> I think Carsten's proposal
>> > is the nicest way, even when a bit
>> > > > "ugly".
>> > > > >> >>> We can add a version patch
>> > in .blend files that sets this button
>> > > > >> >>> active for all old .blends,
>> > but not active for newly created
>> > > > >> >>> textures.
>> > > > >> >>>
>> > > > >> >>> -Ton-
>> > > > >> >>>
>> > > > >> >>>
>> > > > >>
>> > >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > >> >>> Ton Roosendaal
>> > Blender Foundation   ton at blender.org
>> > > > >> www.blender.org
>> > > > >> >>> Blender
>> > Institute   Entrepotdok 57A  1018AD
>> > Amsterdam   The
>> > > > >> >>> Netherlands
>> > > > >> >>>
>> > > > >> >>> On 19 Feb, 2011, at 23:47,
>> > Carsten Wartmann wrote:
>> > > > >> >>>
>> > > > >> >>>> Am 19.02.2011 23:08,
>> > schrieb Dalai Felinto:
>> > > > >> >>>>> I wonder if instead
>> > of a commandline it would be possible to do
>> > > > >> >>>>> this
>> > > > >> >>>>> conversion with
>> > Python. I'm not sure of the current status of
>> > > bpy
>> > > > >> >>>>> for
>> > > > >> >>>>> image handling, but
>> > it would be neat to have an addon for that.
>> > > > >> >>>> My idea was having a
>> > Button inside the Texture Context, Image Tab
>> > > > >> >>>> (beneath the Normal Map
>> > Button) to use "old Blender Normal maps".
>> > > > >> >>>>
>> > > > >> >>>> Carsten
>> > > > >> >>>> --
>> > > > >> >>>> Carsten Wartmann: Autor
>> > - Dozent - 3D - Grafik
>> > > > >> >>>> Homepage:
>> >      http://blenderbuch.de/
>> > > > >> >>>> Das Blender-Buch: http://blenderbuch.de/redirect.html
>> > > > >> >>>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > > > >> >>>> Bf-committers mailing
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>> > > > >> >>>> Bf-committers at blender.org
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>> > > > >> >>>
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>> > > > >> >>
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>> > > > >> >
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>> > > > >>
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>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > Douglas E Knapp
>> > > > >
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