[Bf-committers] No more subsurf and mirror modifier with scupt mode?

[Ronan Zeegers]

Hi Sergey,

Thank to listen to my opinion! I hope it will have his weight between 
all other one ;)
Like you said, maybe the best solution would be a slider (to give the % 
of  alpha level) or an option to be able to view the constructive 
modifiers and/or hide the base mesh.

About combinations of modifiers, I remember playing with Lattice and 
Armature modifier + Sculpt in Blender 2.4x. But it was in exceptionnal 
cases.
For me, the most commun cases are Subsuf and Subsurf+Mirror modifier.
I'll come back to you If I find other.

cheers,

Ronan Zeegers
/*Postprod 2D/3D*
+ 32 (0) 473 45 20 43
www.ronanzeegers.com /



Le 21/04/2011 13:42, Sergey I. Sharybin a écrit :
>    Ronan Zeegers wrote:
>> Hello Sergey,
>>
>> Why not keeping the old approach for the subsurf and mirror modifier?
>> Like you said, at least supporting some simple cases.
>> The intuitiveness of this approach seems to be subjective.
> Current approach was introduced becaue plenty of artists missed
> predictable sculpting on armatured mesh and to implement this i had to
> disable old behaviour (otherwise, things can't be predictable enough and
> both of implementation/working as user was quite difficult task)
>> To defend the old behavior, I think that a 3D artist know that he is
>> scuplting/moving vertex of the base mesh. Not the "virtual" vertex of
>> the subsurf/mirrored/displaced mesh.
>> It never disturbed me to not moving the shape because I was not clicking
>> in an area where there was vertex.
> It's just two different cases which can't live togeter well, but current
> implementation could be used as "basis" for easier re-implement old
> behaviour for constructive modifier.
>
> Actually, i don't think it's contructive to continue discussion like
> "things were cool, now it's not so cool" -- it's different cases and
> returning of (at least some of) constructive modifiers is in my
> sculpting todo list.  I'd prefer to collect as much opinions as it's
> possible to find out which behaviour should be used by default, which
> additional modes should be added and so on (everything, which could help
> to make sculpting in blender useful for wide audience of artists).
>
> Currently, me and Tom (a.k.a Letterrip) dicussed this things and we
> found that re-implementing my old derived-cage patch would help a lot
> with supporting constructive modifiers. Idea is the same as it used for
> edit mode: draw final shape solid and mesh, which is actually editing be
> half-transparent. It wouldn't be helpful for case of deformation
> modifiers because things are becaming much more difficult to see in the
> screen, but should work fine for constructive modifiers and also it'll
> help to visualize "sculpting layer" for difficult cases.
>
> Personally, i don't think supporting of constructive mosidiers should be
> enabled by default -- i'd prefer to have things enabled by default if
> their behaviour is well predictable. Maybe i'm wrong, but it'll be
> simple to change. Also, that half-transparent derived cage could be
> toggleable, so it could be easily hidden.
>
> P.S. Maybe i forgot to mention that disabling all constructive modifiers
> gives advantage in case of mixed constructive/deformation modifiers in
> the stack. In this case i'll see quite final shape of object (maybe
> without vonstructed elements as mirrored part and so on), but shape
> itself is final.
> P.P.S. Difference from previous implementation of derived-cage patch,
> this half-transparent part could be crated from mesh with applying all
> leading deformation modifiers. Maybe it'll be useful. I just not sure
> about which combinations of modifiers are actually used by artists --
> but you could help me with it ;)
>> cheers,
>>
>> Ronan Zeegers
>> /*Postprod 2D/3D*
>> + 32 (0) 473 45 20 43
>> www.ronanzeegers.com /
>>
>>
>> Le 21/04/2011 09:45, Sergey I. Sharybin a écrit :
>>>      Looks like it was implemented in 2.49 exactly in the same way as it
>>> was before enabling sculpting on deformed mesh in 2.5 and i don't find
>>> it intuitive.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what do you mean "properly" -- i can't make strokes on
>>> mirrored part of mesh. And what about sculpting on deformed/armatured mesh?
>>>
>>> Problem that we can't deal with all kinds of modifier stack content and
>>> now we allow only that modifiers, which could be handled ~100% correct.
>>> Of course, we could support simple cases like Bse mesh ->    mirror ->
>>> subsurf or Base mesh ->    armature, but cases like Base mesh ->    mirror ->
>>> armature can't be handled correct. And things could be much more
>>> complicated here and you've got no idea where stroke happens (even in
>>> 2.49 troke isn't happening on that point of subdivided default cube --
>>> try to grab vertex -- it's movenment would be "delayed", it's because of
>>> distance between dragging vertex and prush posiiton).
>>>
>>> That's why ide of sculpt cage was burn -- just to visualize kinda
>>> "sculpting level" which is used for brushes just to make things more
>>> clear about where sculpting happens. Otherwise, in a bit more
>>> complicated modifier stack you should be making strokes far from place
>>> you want to add some displacement. It's not intuitive at all.
>>>
>>> Matt Ebb wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 5:07 PM, Sergey I. Sharybin<g.ulairi at gmail.com>     wrote:
>>>>>      Hi Ronan!
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, you're right -- constructive modifiers (like array, mirror,
>>>>> subsurf,...) were disabled when sculpting. This was made to make
>>>>> sculpting more obvious and enable sculpting on deformed mesh.
>>>> I forget the issues involved here, but I recall sculpting (modifying
>>>> base level mesh, as you would in edit mode) with mirror and subsurf on
>>>> was supported properly in 2.49 - a modeller friend I've worked with
>>>> relied on this a lot - using the sculpt tools to tweak poly modelled
>>>> objects. What's the difference between how it worked in 2.49 and now?
>>>> is it possible at all to restore similar functionality as 2.49?
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>>
>>>> Matt
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