[Bf-committers] No more subsurf and mirror modifier with scupt mode?

Sergey I. Sharybin g.ulairi at gmail.com
Thu Apr 21 13:42:44 CEST 2011


  Ronan Zeegers wrote:
> Hello Sergey,
>
> Why not keeping the old approach for the subsurf and mirror modifier?
> Like you said, at least supporting some simple cases.
> The intuitiveness of this approach seems to be subjective.
Current approach was introduced becaue plenty of artists missed 
predictable sculpting on armatured mesh and to implement this i had to 
disable old behaviour (otherwise, things can't be predictable enough and 
both of implementation/working as user was quite difficult task)
> To defend the old behavior, I think that a 3D artist know that he is
> scuplting/moving vertex of the base mesh. Not the "virtual" vertex of
> the subsurf/mirrored/displaced mesh.
> It never disturbed me to not moving the shape because I was not clicking
> in an area where there was vertex.
It's just two different cases which can't live togeter well, but current 
implementation could be used as "basis" for easier re-implement old 
behaviour for constructive modifier.

Actually, i don't think it's contructive to continue discussion like 
"things were cool, now it's not so cool" -- it's different cases and 
returning of (at least some of) constructive modifiers is in my 
sculpting todo list.  I'd prefer to collect as much opinions as it's 
possible to find out which behaviour should be used by default, which 
additional modes should be added and so on (everything, which could help 
to make sculpting in blender useful for wide audience of artists).

Currently, me and Tom (a.k.a Letterrip) dicussed this things and we 
found that re-implementing my old derived-cage patch would help a lot 
with supporting constructive modifiers. Idea is the same as it used for 
edit mode: draw final shape solid and mesh, which is actually editing be 
half-transparent. It wouldn't be helpful for case of deformation 
modifiers because things are becaming much more difficult to see in the 
screen, but should work fine for constructive modifiers and also it'll 
help to visualize "sculpting layer" for difficult cases.

Personally, i don't think supporting of constructive mosidiers should be 
enabled by default -- i'd prefer to have things enabled by default if 
their behaviour is well predictable. Maybe i'm wrong, but it'll be 
simple to change. Also, that half-transparent derived cage could be 
toggleable, so it could be easily hidden.

P.S. Maybe i forgot to mention that disabling all constructive modifiers 
gives advantage in case of mixed constructive/deformation modifiers in 
the stack. In this case i'll see quite final shape of object (maybe 
without vonstructed elements as mirrored part and so on), but shape 
itself is final.
P.P.S. Difference from previous implementation of derived-cage patch, 
this half-transparent part could be crated from mesh with applying all 
leading deformation modifiers. Maybe it'll be useful. I just not sure 
about which combinations of modifiers are actually used by artists -- 
but you could help me with it ;)
> cheers,
>
> Ronan Zeegers
> /*Postprod 2D/3D*
> + 32 (0) 473 45 20 43
> www.ronanzeegers.com /
>
>
> Le 21/04/2011 09:45, Sergey I. Sharybin a écrit :
>>     Looks like it was implemented in 2.49 exactly in the same way as it
>> was before enabling sculpting on deformed mesh in 2.5 and i don't find
>> it intuitive.
>>
>> I'm not sure what do you mean "properly" -- i can't make strokes on
>> mirrored part of mesh. And what about sculpting on deformed/armatured mesh?
>>
>> Problem that we can't deal with all kinds of modifier stack content and
>> now we allow only that modifiers, which could be handled ~100% correct.
>> Of course, we could support simple cases like Bse mesh ->   mirror ->
>> subsurf or Base mesh ->   armature, but cases like Base mesh ->   mirror ->
>> armature can't be handled correct. And things could be much more
>> complicated here and you've got no idea where stroke happens (even in
>> 2.49 troke isn't happening on that point of subdivided default cube --
>> try to grab vertex -- it's movenment would be "delayed", it's because of
>> distance between dragging vertex and prush posiiton).
>>
>> That's why ide of sculpt cage was burn -- just to visualize kinda
>> "sculpting level" which is used for brushes just to make things more
>> clear about where sculpting happens. Otherwise, in a bit more
>> complicated modifier stack you should be making strokes far from place
>> you want to add some displacement. It's not intuitive at all.
>>
>> Matt Ebb wrote:
>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 5:07 PM, Sergey I. Sharybin<g.ulairi at gmail.com>    wrote:
>>>>     Hi Ronan!
>>>>
>>>> Yep, you're right -- constructive modifiers (like array, mirror,
>>>> subsurf,...) were disabled when sculpting. This was made to make
>>>> sculpting more obvious and enable sculpting on deformed mesh.
>>> I forget the issues involved here, but I recall sculpting (modifying
>>> base level mesh, as you would in edit mode) with mirror and subsurf on
>>> was supported properly in 2.49 - a modeller friend I've worked with
>>> relied on this a lot - using the sculpt tools to tweak poly modelled
>>> objects. What's the difference between how it worked in 2.49 and now?
>>> is it possible at all to restore similar functionality as 2.49?
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> Matt
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-- 
With best regards, Sergey I. Sharybin



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