[Bf-committers] Texture assignment workflow is confusing

Mon May 10 12:23:41 CEST 2010

Sorry about that, I typed it on my phone!
What I meant was, that there seems to be a little inconsistency in your
image proposal, where you have information from the texture going into the
material node, but similar information coming out of nodes for the previews.
This is a bit different to how all the nodes currently work as far as I'm
aware (I could be wrong). I think that normally there is a different hole
for information going into the node, and for coming out. Just a little
thing, so no big deal! I can grasp that that wasn't the main point of your
proposal so don't worry about my little rant.

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Damir Prebeg <blend.factory at gmail.com>wrote:

> Uhm... Please, can you explain "Hard to tell what's going in and what's
> coming out"?
>
> On 10 May 2010 09:45, Luke Frisken <l.frisken at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Don't you think it's a little hard to tell what's going into the
> > material and what's coming out with that suggestion?
> >
> > On 5/10/10, Damir Prebeg <blend.factory at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I've started this topic so It's would be rude from me not to suggest
> > > something. First of all I like Bassam suggestion about nodes, here is
> my
> > > suggestion how this should look.
> > >
> > > http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=3202
> > >
> > > I think image is pretty much self explanatory but if someone need more
> > > detailed description I will send it.
> > >
> > > On top of this, I also like Doug's proposition for sockets witch could
> be
> > > applied for direct assignment of image/tex compund/some-other-node-type
> > to
> > > Diffuse, Transparency or what ever...
> > >
> > > Workflow could be like this:
> > >
> > > I wish to assign some texture (node) to Diffuse channel.
> > >
> > > I click on a button beside Difuse color and that shows me drop-down
> > > selector. In that drop-down I have scrollable list of available node
> > types
> > > with ability to launch file selector and node editor (Ctrl+click on
> buton
> > > that shows that drop-down would launch node editor automatically after
> > some
> > > imaga/node is selected)
> > >
> > >
> > > On 9 May 2010 07:43, Doug Ollivier <doug at flipdesign.co.nz> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi All,
> > >>
> > >> Just curious what the next step is to see if this goes anywhere.  Is
> > >> it...?
> > >>
> > >> 1) Have this topic raised at next meeting, to work out if it is
> > >> something worth exploring from a user?software structure stand-point
> > >> 2) Create a UI proposal exploring the issue and proposing solutions?
> and
> > >> then discussing this at a meeting?
> > >>
> > >> I assume that because the topic went quiet, that there was agreement
> (or
> > >> not disagreement) with the idea of a Socket type influence system.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers.
> > >>
> > >> Doug
> > >>
> > >> On 30/04/2010 1:52 p.m., Doug Ollivier wrote:
> > >> > Awesome,  was curious how light-wave did it.
> > >> >
> > >> > They are all seeming relatively similar with minor differences in
> > >> approach.
> > >> >
> > >> > Any wild cards out there from strange softwares etc?
> > >> >
> > >> > On 30/04/2010 1:40 p.m., Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Ive suggested this type of texture managing in the past inspired on
> > >> >> Lightwave where you can assign a texture or a texture stack to each
> > >> >> value
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Material properties with a T icon to launch texture stack
> > >> >>
> > >> >> http://www.except.nl/lightwave/hdr/images/Surface_notgood_sm.png
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Texture Stack
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >
> http://www.robinwood.com/Catalog/Technical/LightwaveTuts/LWPacks/StainedGlass/SGlassImages/SGlass19B-LayerStack.jpg
> > >> >>
> > >> >> nice...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Daniel Salazar
> > >> >> www.3developer.com
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Doug Ollivier<doug at doug.org.nz>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> On 30/04/2010 3:49 a.m., Knapp wrote:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>> I only use Blender but I was wondering if the other 3d packages
> > have
> > >> >>>> found a good way to handle this texture/materials problem? Could
> we
> > >> >>>> incorporate some good ideas this way? Why reinvent the wheel?
> Does
> > >> >>>> anyone have a favorite other system? How does it work?
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> I am not putting down the other ideas given so far, just hoping
> to
> > >> >>>> find all the options before we pick the best.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>> For those who have just joined my concept is to move the texture
> > >> >>> assignment to the point of control/use/influence when setting up a
> > >> >>> material in order to create a semantic/logicial link between
> action
> > >> >>> and
> > >> >>> affect : http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=2989
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Note: I dislike submitting ideas and saying they were influenced
> by
> > >> >>> the
> > >> >>> big boys, because I find it sometimes elicits a "we don't want to
> > >> >>> copy"
> > >> >>> response, and forces us to reinvent the wheel due to the pride of
> > >> >>> being
> > >> >>> independent and creative. However, pride aside, I agree that
> looking
> > >> >>> at
> > >> >>> how others have solved a problem, and then improving on their
> > >> >>> solutions
> > >> >>> is one of the best methods of development, its not revolutionary,
> > but
> > >> >>> nor were puffer-fish, they evolved from something way less
> exciting.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> I'll outline the two softwares that I have used that give any real
> > >> >>> control over multiple textures, I am curious what great softwares
> > >> others
> > >> >>> have used that solve these issues. But to sum it up I found the
> > >> >>> easiest
> > >> >>> to use ones use a socket type system.  The non-flexible ones with
> > nice
> > >> >>> results (cad rendering packages) give few if not no options so I
> > just
> > >> >>> won't mention them.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> *Photoshop 3D tools,*
> > >> >>> They use a limited socket type system,  either a colour, or a
> single
> > >> >>> image per value of influence.
> > >> >>> I.e. you can choose an image for the reflection channel, colour
> > >> channel,
> > >> >>> spec channel....
> > >> >>> Super easy, pretty limited, but limited in order to be compatible
> > with
> > >> >>> real-time 3D content in PDF's etc...
> > >> >>> Since you are in photoshop you can edit the images, and this is
> > where
> > >> >>> you can add layers and overlay options etc... to get what you want
> > in
> > >> >>> terms of further control.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> *Maya (it's been a while, this is from memory)*
> > >> >>> Uses something in-between what I am suggesting and the photoshop
> > >> >>> approach.  Just like the Blender 2.5 materials panel; each
> material
> > or
> > >> >>> setting is broken up into a sub panel that can be turned on/off
> for
> > >> >>> any
> > >> >>> one effect (incredibly close to the current Blender layout).
> > However,
> > >> >>> they use a socket type texture/node/material input to alter
> various
> > >> >>> settings that cannot be controlled simply by a slider or colour
> > >> >>> picker.
> > >> >>> I believe their implementation is even used to plug in 3rd party
> > >> Plugins
> > >> >>> like SSS, Ramp, and fresnel effects to the various channels etc...
> > >> >>> (not
> > >> >>> just textures).  This linked approach also creates a hypergraph
> > >> >>> (nodes)
> > >> >>> structure.  I had no idea how to use that then so ignored it.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> My biggest annoyance with the Maya system was getting lost once a
> > >> >>> texture has been added, as it dropped you somewhere else in the
> > >> >>> interface that you did not expect (a challenge we would need to
> > >> >>> overcome, but one I think is possible).
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> I am glad brecht suggested this or something similar, as he's
> pretty
> > >> >>> on
> > >> >>> to it, especially when it comes to getting large numbers of fans.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> If this approach is preferred, and is backed up by a development
> > goal
> > >> >>> from the decision makers (If Ton sanctions exploring it it etc..),
> I
> > >> >>> will be willing to work through interface issues with Matt, and
> > >> >>> William
> > >> >>> (these are the two people focusing on interface correct?).
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> The main interface issues to overcome as I can see it are.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> ** Materials - how to keep these tabs clean from fluff
> > >> >>> ** Texture application settings - Where and how do you edit these
> > >> >>> settings that are unique to each material (not to the texture)
> > >> >>> ** Texture settings - the traditional 2.4x datablock, how do you
> get
> > >> >>> to
> > >> >>> this and back again from a material, and a potential intermediate
> > step
> > >> >>> ** Adding and mixing - The current system lets you add and mix
> > >> >>> multiple
> > >> >>> textures, how can this be easily and logically done? (nodes?,
> > >> stacks?...)
> > >> >>> ** extending into the future... Plugins Etc - I think some of this
> > >> >>> will
> > >> >>> come for free if this is a natural step towards "nodes
> everywhere".
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> I think there are no issues that cannot be overcome. and I think
> > that
> > >> >>> old textures can be loaded into a new interface with full
> > >> compatibility.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Someone let me know if this warrants further development and I
> will
> > >> look
> > >> >>> at creating a more detailed interface flow scenario.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> By trade i'm an Industrial Designer, so can look at usability and
> > >> >>> interaction, I'm not a coder unfortunately so cannot help there.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Cheers
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> --
> > >> >>> Doug Ollivier
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> *C:*    +64 (0)27 412 0807
> > >> >>> *P:*    +64 (0)3 980 7197
> > >> >>> *E:*    doug at doug.org.nz
> > >> >>> *W:*    http://doug.org.nz
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> _______________________________________________
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> > >> >>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
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> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
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> >
> > --
> > Sent from my mobile device
> >
> > >From Luke
> > _______________________________________________
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-- 
>From Luke