[Bf-committers] Texture assignment workflow is confusing

[Doug Ollivier]

On 30/04/2010 3:49 a.m., Knapp wrote:
> I only use Blender but I was wondering if the other 3d packages have
> found a good way to handle this texture/materials problem? Could we
> incorporate some good ideas this way? Why reinvent the wheel? Does
> anyone have a favorite other system? How does it work?
>
> I am not putting down the other ideas given so far, just hoping to
> find all the options before we pick the best.
>    
For those who have just joined my concept is to move the texture 
assignment to the point of control/use/influence when setting up a 
material in order to create a semantic/logicial link between action and 
affect : http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=2989

Note: I dislike submitting ideas and saying they were influenced by the 
big boys, because I find it sometimes elicits a "we don't want to copy" 
response, and forces us to reinvent the wheel due to the pride of being 
independent and creative. However, pride aside, I agree that looking at 
how others have solved a problem, and then improving on their solutions 
is one of the best methods of development, its not revolutionary, but 
nor were puffer-fish, they evolved from something way less exciting.

I'll outline the two softwares that I have used that give any real 
control over multiple textures, I am curious what great softwares others 
have used that solve these issues. But to sum it up I found the easiest 
to use ones use a socket type system.  The non-flexible ones with nice 
results (cad rendering packages) give few if not no options so I just 
won't mention them.

*Photoshop 3D tools,*
They use a limited socket type system,  either a colour, or a single 
image per value of influence.
I.e. you can choose an image for the reflection channel, colour channel, 
spec channel....
Super easy, pretty limited, but limited in order to be compatible with 
real-time 3D content in PDF's etc...
Since you are in photoshop you can edit the images, and this is where 
you can add layers and overlay options etc... to get what you want in 
terms of further control.

*Maya (it's been a while, this is from memory)*
Uses something in-between what I am suggesting and the photoshop 
approach.  Just like the Blender 2.5 materials panel; each material or 
setting is broken up into a sub panel that can be turned on/off for any 
one effect (incredibly close to the current Blender layout). However, 
they use a socket type texture/node/material input to alter various 
settings that cannot be controlled simply by a slider or colour picker. 
I believe their implementation is even used to plug in 3rd party Plugins 
like SSS, Ramp, and fresnel effects to the various channels etc... (not 
just textures).  This linked approach also creates a hypergraph (nodes) 
structure.  I had no idea how to use that then so ignored it.

My biggest annoyance with the Maya system was getting lost once a 
texture has been added, as it dropped you somewhere else in the 
interface that you did not expect (a challenge we would need to 
overcome, but one I think is possible).

I am glad brecht suggested this or something similar, as he's pretty on 
to it, especially when it comes to getting large numbers of fans.

If this approach is preferred, and is backed up by a development goal 
from the decision makers (If Ton sanctions exploring it it etc..), I 
will be willing to work through interface issues with Matt, and William 
(these are the two people focusing on interface correct?).

The main interface issues to overcome as I can see it are.

** Materials - how to keep these tabs clean from fluff
** Texture application settings - Where and how do you edit these 
settings that are unique to each material (not to the texture)
** Texture settings - the traditional 2.4x datablock, how do you get to 
this and back again from a material, and a potential intermediate step
** Adding and mixing - The current system lets you add and mix multiple 
textures, how can this be easily and logically done? (nodes?, stacks?...)
** extending into the future... Plugins Etc - I think some of this will 
come for free if this is a natural step towards "nodes everywhere".

I think there are no issues that cannot be overcome. and I think that 
old textures can be loaded into a new interface with full compatibility.

Someone let me know if this warrants further development and I will look 
at creating a more detailed interface flow scenario.

By trade i'm an Industrial Designer, so can look at usability and 
interaction, I'm not a coder unfortunately so cannot help there.

Cheers

-- 
Doug Ollivier

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*E:* 	doug at doug.org.nz
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