[Bf-committers] Women and Open Source (Fwd: Call for diversity)

[joe]

I'm a little confused on just what we're supposed to do about this.
It seems to me that women simply aren't interested in OSS in the same
numbers as men; this is true with computer science and IT in general.
I don't believe it's our place to encourage woman to enter this
fields; that's what universities and scholarship grant programs are
for (which I imagine are far more effective).

I think the attitude of "well, there must be something wrong with our
society if woman aren't going into this field as much as men" is
stupid.  There's nothing that says that women *must* be as interested
in computer science as men are, in the same proportions.  Frankly, I
think it's a little insulting to women, as if society is telling them
that they are somehow less then men by not choosing careers in exactly
the same proportions.  Besides, plenty of woman go into fields that
require as much or more study then computer science (medicine comes to
mind).

I think encouraging women to go into engineering fields is a good
idea, but I don't think such a thing can work in an OSS project.  For
one thing, I don't imagine there's much we could do, anyway.  And like
I said above, I think universities and scholarship programs are far
more effective; unlike OSS projects, they can give real financial
incentives, while I can't really think of anything *we* could do.

Joe

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Toni Alatalo<antont at kyperjokki.fi> wrote:
> (am sorry to break email threading here, can't reply properly 'cause
> had delivery off for the list due to some holiday email hassle)
>
> Jim Smyth wrote:
>
>> I don't think that the lack of women is specific to Open Source, but
>> IT and sciences in general. Frankly, the only thing that should really
>
> Yah I don't think anyone has suggested that, but the keynote was given
> at an OS conf, and this is an OS project, and perhaps there is
> something OS projects can do about it.
>
>> "After all, as Kirrily pointed out, the more inclusive we are, the
>> more people we have working on Python." - This seems to imply the
>> problem is that Python discourages women from joining development,
>> which is certainly not the case.
>
> I don't think anyone has suggested that either.
>
>> As far as I can tell, development on Blender (like python) is entirely
>> results-driven and I've never heard of anyone on this project (or
>> really any major OSS project) turned away or discouraged for reasons
>> of race, gender, or creed. Mandating diversity is no better than
>> mandating homogeneity. Let's concern ourselves only with what a person
>> contributes to the project and ignore everything else, because it
>> really shouldn't matter.
>
> Agreed, that's what we do, I think quite well, and should continue to
> do. I don't think anyone in the talks I referred has differed  here,
> but quite reverse, know and understand this well.
>
>
>> If you really see gender balance as a problem that needs to be
>> addressed, please realize that the problem isn't on this end. The
>> problem is core cultural values that teach women that math and
>> technology are fields for men and many cultures actively discourage
>> women from entering those fields. These issues must be addressed by
>
> Right, I also believe this is mostly about historical legacy (the
> situation you describe there was very extreme in years 1700-1800 or so
> when universities had studies like esthetics so that women could also
> have some nice fancy hobby, whereas science was supposedly reserved for
> men. Lady Ada and other heroes from those ages being rare exceptions,
> like Marie Curie later etc).
>
> I think this is exactly why it should be corrected, 'cause it's just
> stupid.
>
>> those respective cultures, and really is outside the purview of
>> projects such as this.
>
> The whole point is that perhaps projects like Blender and Python can
> help that change. I don't think we should just close our eyes and raise
> our hands and think that it's not our problem. It's probably not (much)
> our fault at all, like said above, but that's irrelevant /if/ there is
> something *sensible*, no matter how little, that we could do about it.
>
> I don't believe large changes in cultures start by some grand political
> actions, but in small grassroots activities that slowly grow and
> suddenly have resulted in significant changes, and then after many
> years the politicians etc. notice them too.
>
> I don't know if there is some such sensible thing we could do. Any
> mandates or special treatments or anything like that I think would be
> just stupid, I don't think anyone has considered those.
>
> Elubie mentioned yesterday on irc when basically these same points were
> made that one factor is the lack of role models for women in this. That
> obviously results from the culture-historical legacy. Perhaps that is
> one area where with some clever communications / PR something could be
> done somewhere.
>
> Basically all I'm saying here is that if someone within Blender is
> interested and/or knowledgeable in this, perhaps he/she can participate
> in the talks with other open source projects on the fora dedicated to
> this issue, and if some nice activity is planned there, it would be
> good for Blender to participate too. I don't suggest this list would be
> the place to solve the issue once and for all for everyone, just
> forwarded the post in case someone would be interested.
>
> ~Toni
>
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