[Bf-committers] Blendergo - layers proposal

[Toni Alatalo]

trip somewhere kirjoitti:
> A Layer should be just that, A layer, a mesh should exsit on one layer
> at any one given time. It is coherent and apparent.

I don't think you can just say that. The word 'layer' does not 
necessarily say what the concept is exactly in Blender.
If there are valid uses for the feature that a single thing can be in 
many at the same time, it does not make sense to remove that 
functionality just to conform to some other system that some other tool 
has for a different thing that just uses the same name for it. Often 
with computers we don't actually have names for the things or the names 
are incorrect, so you can not just look at the name of a feature and 
define it from that - you have to look at what it actually does and what 
it is used for and how.

Perhaps Blender layers are in a way like groups? - enabling the flag for 
an object makes it part of a certain collection. I think the design for 
better layer management should look at how power users use the existing 
features, and what they are missing. The Blendergo proposal does this to 
an extent, and presents some interesting ideas (i like the idea of using 
diff shaped icons :). But indeed image manipulation app layers 
(photoshop, krita) are perhaps not that useful to look at, although I 
guess also there a part of the usage is object 'grouping' - besides just 
the z-ordering and blend effects. The relevance of the Maya example I 
don't get at all - are those render layers like passes, or what? 
Certainly looks like a different thing than the Blender object layers. 
Would be more interesting to know what other packages use for object 
management.. then again this is not funboard, so please do not educate 
me about it here.

> Now to assist in that, over in Photoshop land we have Layer comps.
> A set of remembered on and off layer mixes that can be cycled through
> rapidly to deside on a final approval, there by not needing to
> remember which combination of layers to change over and over or make
> several files to keep updating.

Yep, assisting functionality like that would certainly be needed on top 
of the blender core system too .. like many have done with scripts.

> Also the layers have blending modes, but errrrr thats just more

well, so do Blender texture layers, which i guess do pretty much conform 
to what image apps like photoshop mean with layers.

~Toni
> On 3/2/07, Chris Burt <desoto at exenex.com> wrote:
>> I would agree here. I think that Blender's layer manager system has
>> benefits which would be lost if we dumped it entirely for another
>> metaphor. Objects existing in multiple layers is something I
>> personally would like to keep. Just my two cents....
>>
>> Regards,
>> --Chris
>>
>> On 3/2/07, Robert Wenzlaff (AB8TD) <rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com> wrote:
>> > On Friday 02 March 2007 02:43, lguillaume wrote:
>> > > Hello, looks good, just a thing :
>> > > I have made a little layer manager for Blender, I added the 
>> possibility to
>> > > change the drawtype for all the mesh of the layer, but there is 
>> one thing I
>> > > don't know how to solve : when you have a mesh on more than one 
>> layer, it
>> > > take the parameters from the first layer, from the last?
>> > >
>> > > 2007/3/1, doug <doug at mudpuddle.co.nz>:
>> > > > This is a proposal for this round of development. and is to do 
>> with
>> > > > blender layers, with one possibility of how they could work 
>> (and how they
>> > > > could tie in with other features of blender, to help simplify 
>> them).
>> > > >
>> > > > http://blendergo.mudpuddle.co.nz/proposals/Layers2.pdf
>> >
>> > One thin is if you are doing all this work to re-vamp the layers, 
>> why limit
>> > them to 20?  Maybe only the first 20 in the list get a button on 
>> the header,
>> > (so you should be able to move them up and down).
>> >
>> > Objects on more than one layer pose a problem as to just using an 
>> ID code.
>> > Perhaps a layer should just be a linked list of Object ID's with a 
>> flag that
>> > define what attributes to get from which layer.  ie; an object's 
>> first layer
>> > is it's Primary Layer and it gets all attributes that you can't 
>> really just
>> > OR together, like draw color/mode.  Other layers assigned would be 
>> secondary
>> > and just OR the visible/render/lock flags together.
>> >
>> > Of course that system poses all sorts of UI issues, too.  If you 
>> try to edit
>> > an object and find it's locked by one of the 39 layers it's a 
>> member of,
>> > which layer do you go to to unlock it?
>> >
>> > I think the Blender concept of Layers is so radically different from
>> > other apps that trying to borrow from their Layer manager is a just
>> > asking for trouble.
>> > --
>> > *************************************************************
>> > You may be a hacker if. . .
>> >  More than 15% of your Hard Drive consists of core dumps. . .
>> >          And you buy a larger drive so you can keep them.
>> > *************************************************************
>> > Robert Wenzlaff                   rwenzlaff at soylent-green.com
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > Bf-committers at projects.blender.org
>> > http://projects.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>> >
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