<html><head></head><body>Focusing on the big picture and working within our limited resources is going to be essential. The other thing is context, keeping in mind <i>who </i>this work is being done for.<div><br></div><div>It's going to be really easy to get wrapped up and distracted by detailed specifics, particularly since we all have a pet-list of features and changes we'd like for ourselves. Staying focused on the broader goals will be key. <br><div><div><div> <br><div class="bloop_sign"><div>-- <br>Jonathan Williamson</div></div> <p class="gmail_quote" style="color:#000;">On November 20, 2016 at 7:24:26 AM, Ton Roosendaal (<a href="mailto:ton@blender.org">ton@blender.org</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"><span><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div></div><div>
<title></title>
Hi,
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">Thanks for the feedback. I think we should settle on
the big picture as fast as possible. We shouldn't spend 3 days
talking, but have enough periods of work in-between in small groups
or alone - to tackle issues we found and then present later
on.</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">The general structure for the first day should be as
much as possible based on agreeing on the outcome of 3 days.</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">First day we should try to settle on the big
picture:</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">- Short intro for everyone to speak up, make sure our
three days will cover all topics well.</div>
<div class="">- Wrap up of 2.5 project; what's good and what's
there to be improved</div>
<div class="">- Analysis of current issues in widest sense - and
what would "Workflow" mean for people in general.</div>
<div class="">- Re-establish core values and design specs for
Blender. (using 2.5 checklist). </div>
<div class="">- Verify the practical considerations and focus - we
have to accept we have limited resources. Match our ambitions with
competences, so we get a feasible project.</div>
<div class="">- During the day we can maintain a list of discussion
topics on which we don't easily settle, or which we want to spend
more time on. That can help defining the agendas for days 2 and
3.</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">- But, clearly define what we want to achieve in days
2 and 3. That includes design proposals, layouts, mockups, APIs,
etc. </div>
<div class=""></div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">I want to emphasis that the "2.8 workflow" project is
not about a complete Blender redesign, we can't drop or revise all
paradigms and start over from scratch. For that we simply don't
have the time or resources. I think everyone who attends the
workshop knows that, but it's always good repeat it. :)</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">Best result for me would be if we can achieve:</div>
<div class="">- A very good understanding and agreement on
Blender's limits and possibilities, which will keep design and
projects focused.</div>
<div class="">- A number of simple and feasible design decisions
that will help current projects, and/or that can be added
easily</div>
<div class="">- A good procedure in place to validate future
proposals and empower teams to make decisions.</div>
<div class="">- Let's do something with a result we can show within
the course of 2017!</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">Laters,</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;">
</span>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;">
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;">
</span></span>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;">
-Ton-<br class="">
<br class="">
--------------------------------------------------------<br class="">
Ton Roosendaal - <a href="mailto:ton@blender.org" class="">ton@blender.org</a> - <a href="http://www.blender.org" class="">www.blender.org</a><br class=""></span></div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;">
Chairman Blender Foundation, Director Blender
Institute</span></div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;">
Entrepotdok 57A, 1018 AD, Amsterdam, the Netherlands</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 18 Nov 2016, at 14:20, Paweł Łyczkowski
<<a href="mailto:pawellyczkowski@gmail.com" class="">pawellyczkowski@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">My take on agenda could look like:<br class="">
<br class=""></div>
1st day: Since UI in big part visual, and during discussions it's
difficult to show how ideas work (one has to describe), I would
make the first day talks with access to the projector. Topic of
talks would be directions one wants to push. There's 9
participants, so there should be enough time for 1h per
participants - 45 min talk, 15 min questions/clarification/quick
opinions. That is - if everyone participating requests a talk (by
mail, during next week).<br class="">
<br class=""></div>
That would be a warmup day, with time between it and the 2nd day to
digest the ideas.<br class="">
<br class=""></div>
2nd day: Discussion day. Since UI talk can go off the rails very
quickly the discussion should go topic by topic, from a predefined
list. So, something like Bastien proposed. That's my rough
take:<br class="">
<br class="">
- Paradigms and general direction<br class=""></div>
- Blender 101<br class=""></div>
<div class="">- Discoverability and help
(tuts/tooltips/documentation)<br class=""></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">- Screen layout and general GUI<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - Layer Manager [2] and
Outliner<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - Modifier list [6]<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - Brecht Bar [3]<br class="">
<div class=""> - Screen Layouts, editing modes and tabs
(including Topbar Tabs [5])<br class=""></div>
</div>
<div class=""> - Sidebars (customizing
sidebars)<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""> - General customization (hiding parts of
GUI?)</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""> - Display Settings - UI vs new
viewport<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">- Workflow<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - Data handling (fake user and data
loss, asset management)<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - Multi-mesh editing/UV
mapping<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - Setting properties of multiple
objects<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - Container objects [4]<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - UDIM<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - Texture Painting (layers?)<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - Snapping and Proportional
Editing<br class=""></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
- How operators work, how tools work [1]<br class=""></div>
- Interaction<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - Keymap, especialy keymap core (mouse
buttons, navigation, selection)<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - Keymap editor and it's
issues<br class="">
<div class=""> - Widgets</div>
</div>
- Pies<br class=""></div>
- Sticky Keys<br class=""></div>
<div class="">- Add-ons<br class=""></div>
<div class="">- Code related discussion<br class=""></div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">And, most important:<br class=""></div>
<div class=""> - Priority (It's probably inevitable that there
will be more ideas than 2.8 can handle. We should decide on a
couple of items that are top priority then)<br class=""></div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
3rd day: Decisions announced by module owners and working on
concrete solutions (or at least drafts). Here breaking into groups
would be good I suppose, with at least one dev (that can mock up
prototypes in realtime maybe?) per group.<br class="">
<br class=""></div>
<div class="">Let me know what you guys think.<br class=""></div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
Cheers,<br class=""></div>
</div>
Paweł Łyczkowski<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
Additional reading:<br class="">
[1] - <a href="https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Proposals/UI/Tools_Workflow" class="">https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Proposals/UI/Tools_Workflow</a>
and <a href="https://developer.blender.org/T37554" class="">https://developer.blender.org/T37554</a> - Tools Workflow by
William Reynish, <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ScPMbHv8WRCU2znB7IU2l-W9hH-NLs5weQKLkjqmgpA/edit#heading=h.xira9p9pbv78" class="">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ScPMbHv8WRCU2znB7IU2l-W9hH-NLs5weQKLkjqmgpA/edit#heading=h.xira9p9pbv78</a>
- Adding Tool Mode to Operators by me<br class="">
[2] - <a href="https://developer.blender.org/T38384" class="">https://developer.blender.org/T38384</a> - Layer Manager
proposal by me. <a href="https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:Julianeisel/GSoC-2016/UI_Design" class="">https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:Julianeisel/GSoC-2016/UI_Design</a>
- Julian's Layer Manager doc<br class="">
[3] - <a href="https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Proposals/UI/Top_Bar_Reshuffle" class="">https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Proposals/UI/Top_Bar_Reshuffle</a>
Brecht Bar by Brecht<br class="">
[4] - <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ScPMbHv8WRCU2znB7IU2l-W9hH-NLs5weQKLkjqmgpA/edit#heading=h.k20w9k3djv7c" class="">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ScPMbHv8WRCU2znB7IU2l-W9hH-NLs5weQKLkjqmgpA/edit#heading=h.k20w9k3djv7c</a>
- A Container type object by me.<br class="">
[5] - <a href="https://developer.blender.org/T39835" class="">https://developer.blender.org/T39835</a> Topbar Tabs by
Julian<br class="">
[6] - <a href="https://developer.blender.org/T38178" class="">https://developer.blender.org/T38178</a> Modifier List<br class="">
<br class=""></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:58 AM Bastien
Montagne <<a href="mailto:montagne29@wanadoo.fr" class="">montagne29@wanadoo.fr</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi,<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
Disclaimer: I’m starting fresh from initial mail again, since I’ve
seen<br class="gmail_msg">
mails going already in way to much details, imho (Sebastian… ;) ).
My<br class="gmail_msg">
point being: topic is way to broad and complex to be discussed in
a<br class="gmail_msg">
single thread, would make it impossible to follow. So I propose to
keep<br class="gmail_msg">
this thread only for the topics definition, and planning/agenda
(in<br class="gmail_msg">
other words, the schedule of the workshop). For further
detailed<br class="gmail_msg">
discussion of a topic or another (like, keymap, various types
of<br class="gmail_msg">
customizations, 101, etc.), please start new (or use existing)
threads.<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
So, here is first draft of how I’d see things for the
weekend:<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
- Day I & II: Tackle each topic, from both
sides:<br class="gmail_msg">
-- "Usability" side: Reconfirm existing UI/UX
paradigms, check if<br class="gmail_msg">
we need to make some of them evolve, and define new needed
ones.<br class="gmail_msg">
-- "Technical" side: Based on designs laid out
by usability<br class="gmail_msg">
discussions, check what needs to be changed/extended/added to our
UI/WM<br class="gmail_msg">
code (not thinking about tiny implementation details here of
course).<br class="gmail_msg">
- Day III: Would keep it 'empty', can think of several ways
to use it:<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Potentially extra time to finish discussion
on some topics if we<br class="gmail_msg">
ran out of time in first two days.<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Handle unforeseen topics, questions etc.
that may have arose<br class="gmail_msg">
during workshop.<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Maybe spread in smaller groups to refine
work on some specific<br class="gmail_msg">
topics.<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Write/review first draft of final reports
(though most of this<br class="gmail_msg">
work should be done in days after workshop, of course)?<br class="gmail_msg">
-- ...<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
Some more organizational notes/questions (we do not want to be too
much<br class="gmail_msg">
formal, but think agreeing on that could be useful and save
time):<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
- Do we want to work in a single big group, or several
smaller<br class="gmail_msg">
groups? (personally, I would say one single group for first two
days,<br class="gmail_msg">
imho it’s important that everyone has minimal knowledge of all
topics'<br class="gmail_msg">
discussion, even if not directly interested to actually work on it.
Then<br class="gmail_msg">
more freedom for the last day… ;) )<br class="gmail_msg">
-- If we go for several smaller groups, we could agree
on the "at<br class="gmail_msg">
least one artist and one dev in each group" rule?<br class="gmail_msg">
- Do we accept talk? If yes, how long should they be
at most?<br class="gmail_msg">
(personally, would keep them short, maybe as introduction of
some<br class="gmail_msg">
topics, think we mostly need lots of discussion to agree on
designs)<br class="gmail_msg">
- ...<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
And now, the topics (I put them in a hierarchy tree, that’s
obviously<br class="gmail_msg">
somewhat subjective, also probably have forgotten many points… and
it<br class="gmail_msg">
does not mean branches are not related to each other!):<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
- UI/UX<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Do we need new UI widgets? Extend/Rework
some existing ones?<br class="gmail_msg">
(also thinking about proposed talk from Paweł, here)<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Do we need to extend or modify some
interactions with operators<br class="gmail_msg">
(modal ones? heavy computations ones?)?<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Review recent new UI features (custom
manipulators and pies<br class="gmail_msg">
mainly), how to use them in “default” Blender and not only as
optional<br class="gmail_msg">
new things?<br class="gmail_msg">
-- ...<br class="gmail_msg">
- Customization<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Do we agree on the need to have a place in
UI where artists can<br class="gmail_msg">
dump random settings and operators?<br class="gmail_msg">
--- If yes, how to do it (position? with tabs?
with panels?<br class="gmail_msg">
floating or not? etc.)?<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Make macro operators part of customization
possibilities?<br class="gmail_msg">
-- ...<br class="gmail_msg">
- Workflows<br class="gmail_msg">
-- What is part of/defines a
workflow?<br class="gmail_msg">
--- keymaps?<br class="gmail_msg">
--- UI items (panels, menus, ...) -
i.e., exposed/visible tools<br class="gmail_msg">
and data/settings?<br class="gmail_msg">
--- Custom manipulators?<br class="gmail_msg">
--- Screen layout?<br class="gmail_msg">
--- Visualization settings (like
different draw modes in viewport…)?<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Do we replace (mostly viewport) modes (edit,
sculpt, paint etc.)<br class="gmail_msg">
by workflows?<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Do we reuse/extend existing workspaces
(screens) feature as<br class="gmail_msg">
workflows, or do we keep them separated? Or do we keep workflows
inside<br class="gmail_msg">
single space area?<br class="gmail_msg">
-- ...<br class="gmail_msg">
- Blender 101<br class="gmail_msg">
-- I see it as a specific workflow, roughly,
should we use it as a<br class="gmail_msg">
kind of guinea pig of workflow project?<br class="gmail_msg">
-- ...<br class="gmail_msg">
- Code-related questions<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Is custom spaces part of/needed for this
project (custom spaces<br class="gmail_msg">
would be definable from py, similar to how panels or UIList work
currently)?<br class="gmail_msg">
-- Do we need to rework the notifications
system?<br class="gmail_msg">
-- ...<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
Again, this is own first draft (based on previous mails and
own<br class="gmail_msg">
knowledge), most likely forgot or overseen many things… You are
more<br class="gmail_msg">
than welcome to add, move, remove, comment, suggest, whatever (even
to<br class="gmail_msg">
say this is complete piece of trash ;) )… But please, let’s keep
this<br class="gmail_msg">
thread onto agreeing on organization/agenda/topics points, and
*not*<br class="gmail_msg">
about detailed topics' content discussion/proposal/etc., really
think we<br class="gmail_msg">
should keep this into separated threads (like the one already
started by<br class="gmail_msg">
Mike regarding Blender 101).<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
Also, we may end with too much for three days, we can always trim
down<br class="gmail_msg">
later and focus on biggest/most important topics first, leaving
smaller<br class="gmail_msg">
ones for online discussion, if needed.<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
Cheers,<br class="gmail_msg">
Bastien<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
Le 06/11/2016 à 18:02, Ton Roosendaal a écrit :<br class="gmail_msg">
> Hi all,<br class="gmail_msg">
><br class="gmail_msg">
> The workshop will be here in Blender Institute, 25-27
November.<br class="gmail_msg">
> Confirmed participants are:<br class="gmail_msg">
><br class="gmail_msg">
> - Jonathan Williamson<br class="gmail_msg">
> - Pablo Vazquez<br class="gmail_msg">
> - Julian Eisel<br class="gmail_msg">
> - Paweł Łyczkowski<br class="gmail_msg">
> - Daniel Lara<br class="gmail_msg">
> - Sebastian Koenig<br class="gmail_msg">
> - Bastien Montagne<br class="gmail_msg">
> - Brecht van Lommel<br class="gmail_msg">
> - Mike Pan<br class="gmail_msg">
><br class="gmail_msg">
> I'm very happy to confirm that we'll get additional
development support from Aleph Objects (Lulzbot 3D printer) to hire
people for coding and designing work. Work would be on '2.8
workflow' in general, but result should lead to a
release-compatible Blender version that's configured to be suitable
for kids or occasional users to make 3d prints. That's the "101
project" Mike Pan will be working on.<br class="gmail_msg">
><br class="gmail_msg">
> In the coming weeks we should check on the planning for the
workshop days, the agenda, and do a lot of preparations. Hopefully
we can discuss and review existing proposals as much as
possible.<br class="gmail_msg">
><br class="gmail_msg">
> Let's throw random ideas in this week, then I come with a more
structured proposal by end of week.<br class="gmail_msg">
> OK?<br class="gmail_msg">
><br class="gmail_msg">
> Laters,<br class="gmail_msg">
><br class="gmail_msg">
> -Ton-<br class="gmail_msg">
><br class="gmail_msg">
>
--------------------------------------------------------<br class="gmail_msg">
> Ton Roosendaal - <a href="mailto:ton@blender.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">ton@blender.org</a>
- <a href="http://www.blender.org/" rel="noreferrer" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">www.blender.org</a><br class="gmail_msg">
> Chairman Blender Foundation, Director Blender
Institute<br class="gmail_msg">
> Entrepotdok 57A, 1018 AD, Amsterdam, the Netherlands<br class="gmail_msg">
><br class="gmail_msg">
> _______________________________________________<br class="gmail_msg">
> Bf-interface mailing list<br class="gmail_msg">
> <a href="mailto:Bf-interface@blender.org" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">Bf-interface@blender.org</a><br class="gmail_msg">
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<br class="gmail_msg">
_______________________________________________<br class="gmail_msg">
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</blockquote>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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