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I never suggested that we shouldn't develop something new. I was
suggesting that we keep support for FBX until a viable replacement
is found that other studios/applications use. Supporting a new
interchange format at the expense of FBX is a pointless endeavour
unless other programs can also read that format. The whole point of
a universal format is that it is universal after all.<br>
<br>
Sure AOL used to be king, but it took years for them to lose that
crown & there were suitable alternatives for people to move over
to. People just didn't just suddenly stop using them in the hope
that something new came along. There were multiple competent
alternatives for people to choose from.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">The worse that can happen is it fails, then
what? Keep on developing new features and tools to make better
products because that's what developers do.</blockquote>
<br>
If it fails then you are at best interfering with users productivity
and at worst affecting their livelihood. This isn't some theoretical
situation where the changes will go unnoticed. The change directly
affects people, which is proven by the number of bug reports being
filed. If FBX import/export suddenly stops working and I have a job
to do and a deadline to hit, what am I supposed to do?<br>
<br>
Again, and I want to be super clear about this so that there is no
misunderstanding. There is no other interchange format that can
replace FBX right now. If you want to transfer models between
applications you have to use OBJ or FBX. These are your only options
if you are a professional who works in games.<br>
<br>
It's great to be idealistic about being open source but if you want
to do 3d for a living there are something things that are essential
and robust I/O is one of them. If I cant get my models into, or out
of Blender & into a game engine or to a client as they request,
Blender becomes essentially useless. <br>
<br>
FWIW, I would love to see new format support, just not at the
expense of FBX stability.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
-Andy<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/02/2016 23:10, Owen Hogarth II
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CALM2mEn1ALofuLQLmaTLOcP_n1gnr4D7YrzRN3WzpxC1KUOY9A@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">There was a time when AOL was the top of internet,
then microsot, now google. There's always change in the
techniverse. The original poster didn't say drop FBX and neither
did I. I was agreeing with OP in saying that blender should take
that leadership role and push forward for a new format. Clout
means nothing when you have an innovative product.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If these new formats are so great implement one, if it's
easy to use devs will use it. Very few people care about the
best, most people care about ease of use. That's just the way
mass market products work. I don't know if blender wants to be
mass market or niche but straddling that line is making
blender users look insane.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I was recently looking for a tool to make 2d text effects
like after effects. To my surprise blender does that extremely
well. Before that a video editor blender does that extremely
well and that's just a few. You could do 2d animations with
free form deformation like spine it does okay but it can be
done in blender right now. Blender does so many things well
but nobody knows about it so nobody outside of blender people
really care because it's not easy to use.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I write all that to say that I do prefer things that are
open and stable so I spend the time to learn these things but
not many will. Back to the FBX talk, leave it where it is.
Blender developers can take the lead and push something new
into the market. The worse that can happen is it fails, then
what? Keep on developing new features and tools to make better
products because that's what developers do. </div>
<div><br>
Best,</div>
<div>Owen</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:58 AM,
metalliandy <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:metalliandy666@googlemail.com"
target="_blank">metalliandy666@googlemail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> I'm not sure I
understand where you are coming from, Owen. This isn't
about stragglers who are refusing to adopt new standards.
We are talking about stopping support for the most widely
use interchange format in the industry, not dropping an
old obsolete feature.<br>
<br>
FBX is the de facto format right now and whether we like
it or not there simply isn't another format to replace it
with at the moment. In a few years (5+) this might change,
but currently Blender just doesn't have the clout or
professional userbase to call these kinds of shots, so if
we want to be taken seriously we have to follow where
others lead and use the format that everyone else is
using.<br>
<br>
The problem isn't moving to a new interchange format. It's
moving to a new interchange format alone. I'm not
suggesting we don't work on a replacement format in the
meantime of course. :)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
-Andy
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 09/02/2016 22:40, Owen Hogarth II wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Physically based rendering is coming
in full force and most if not all artists
professional or hobby have to just adopt it or get
left in the past. Opengl Vulkan is coming and
eventually you adapt to it or die. One thing I
don't get about this back and fourth is the idea
that this less evil is better than that greater
evil. Why not live w/o the evil. There will always
be stragglers, there's still people out there
writing programs with fixed pipeline opengl. There
are people still running windows XP out there who
do not want to upgrade to linux. It's my opinion
that no matter how long you wait, it will never be
a good time to switch to something new.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>FBX export in blender works, leave it where
it is and move on to something new. As far as
which new format to use, that can be up for
debate but the idea that you're still asking
should we or shouldn't we move past FBX is quite
a shame. Chicken or the egg problem, artists
won't just get up ad adopt something new. I'd
say implement one of the new formats and keep it
moving.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Owen</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at
6:30 AM, metalliandy <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:metalliandy666@googlemail.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:metalliandy666@googlemail.com">metalliandy666@googlemail.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Hey
everyone,<br>
<br>
I have mixed feelings about this to be
honest. While I don't agree with the way FBX
is licensed (it should be open sourced
ASAP, IMHO), the fact remains that it is
still the current interchange format and
will be for the foreseeable future, no
matter who owns the standard or how much we
dislike it.<br>
<br>
I would hate for this to turn into another
crusade against Autodesk, where we all just
start blindly sharpening our pitchforks and
blindly head into the foray, because such
things only end up hurting our users in the
long run. Yes, it would be awesome to
support other formats such as glTF, Alembic
and USD, but it wont mean anything if no one
else within the games industry uses them
too. We would just end up with a Blender
only pipeline and "Blender is for Blender
users" crap that flew around a few years
ago. Such protectionism can only hurt
Blender as you are effectively working
against de facto industry standards rather
than with them. Having a program that can't
talk to other software restricts the use of
said software, and studios are simply not
going to adopt Blender only pipelines so a
competent interchange format is essential. <br>
<br>
Yes, standards do change, but this takes a <u>very</u>
long time to happen. Remember when Collada
was meant to be the new standard? Look what
happened there...<br>
As of now no other format (aside from the
ageing and less feature rich OBJ) comes
close the the level of industry support that
FBX has & even Pixologic, who have been
the bastion of OBJ support (even extending
the format to support vertex colours), have
recently implemented FBX support in the
latest version of ZBrush to aim interop.
between applications. <br>
<br>
This is unfortunate of course, but unless we
want to alienate Blender from the rest of
the 3d world stopping support for it would
be a bad move. Blender has made so many
giant leaps forward in terms of gamedev use
over the past few years and having FBX
slowly break over the next few years will do
nothing but hurt Blender usability and
reputation. Most people simply don't
understand or care that we can't use the FBX
SDK within Blender and will simply assume
that Blender is buggy. <br>
<br>
It's not just about current users
either...we have to think about future users
that are migrating over to Blender from
Max/Maya who expect something like FBX to
just work. If they cannot simply load an FBX
into Blender without issue, they will also
assume that Blender is buggy as it can't
even support FBX correctly.<br>
<br>
Next we have to think about people who use
Blender on a professional level too for
things like freelance work. 80% of the time
I get meshes for texturing/baking from
clients the low poly & block out mesh
part of the asset are in the FBX format. It
would be extremely embarrassing and
unprofessional of me to request OBJ in the
place of FBX and potentially jeopardise the
possibility of future work with
new/especially picky clients (FWIW, I used
to use FBX converter to go from FBX to OBJ,
but this is ironically no longer supported
by Autodesk).<br>
<br>
In addition to the above we also have the
problem of fixed pipelines. It is usual for
studios to define a pipeline during
pre-production and maintain it rigorously at
the low level at least until the current
project ends. Many studios also run
staggered production of multiple projects
using the R&D & pipelines of the
previous "lead" project and if we assume
that a project will last between 2-4 years
we are probably talking between 3-6 years
before pipeline changes are considered for
something as integral as interchange
formats. Granted this is more likely a
problem for AAA studios and not many of them
use Blender as a main tool, but they do have
freelancers who use Blender, which will be a
problem for them. It will also rule out
Blender for such studios if they were ever
to think about moving over (assuming they
use FBX ofc.)<br>
<br>
Ignoring the problems with FBX isn't going
to help anything really as the problems will
only get worse over time and there is
nothing we can realistically use to replace
it with.<br>
<br>
I guess that I find it hard to see how
anyone can seriously think that maintaining
FBX is a waste of time because such support
is essential for the many people that use
FBX on a day to day basis. Wouldn't it only
be a waste of time if no one used it?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
-Andy
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div>On 09/02/2016 19:33, Piotr
Arlukowicz wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">Standards
can change, and the sooner, the
better. World should be open and
friendly, not closed and cluttered
with crap from huge companies. As
I don't have to use FBX, I vote
against it every possible time.
Let's make something valuable
instead of supporting those
bastards. They are famous but
their so called standards are
nothing more than bad habits. Yes,
I blame autodesk and the others
for being closed, money greedy and
unfriendly to the community.
That's mine five cents.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">pio</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br
clear="all">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Piotr
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(12,52,61);display:inline">
Arlukowicz, BFCT</div>
<br>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(12,52,61)"><span
style="color:rgb(204,204,204)"><b><span style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif"><b><span
style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif">YT:</span></b><span
style="color:rgb(162,196,201)"><span style="font-family:arial
narrow,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(208,224,227)"><u>/user/piotao?feature=guide</u></span></span></span></span></b></span>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(12,52,61);display:inline"><span
style="color:rgb(204,204,204)"> <b><span style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif">FB:</span></b><span
style="color:rgb(208,224,227)"> <span style="font-family:arial
narrow,sans-serif"><u>/polskikursblendera</u></span></span>
<b><span
style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif">TW:</span></b>
</span><span
style="font-family:arial
narrow,sans-serif"><u><span
style="color:rgb(19,79,92)"><span style="color:rgb(208,224,227)">/piotao</span><br>
</span></u></span></div>
<span
style="color:rgb(153,153,153)"><b><span
style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif">Blender
Network:</span></b>
<b><span
style="color:rgb(118,165,175)"><span
style="font-family:arial
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target="_blank">https://www.blendernetwork.org/piotr-arlukowicz</a></span></span></b></span><br>
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<span
style="color:rgb(102,102,102)"><b><span
style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif">Polski
Kurs Blendera:</span></b></span>
<span
style="color:rgb(11,83,148)"><span
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
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<br>
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<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2016-02-09
13:16 GMT-05:00 Bastien Montagne <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:montagne29@wanadoo.fr"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:montagne29@wanadoo.fr">montagne29@wanadoo.fr</a></a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000"> Well, once
more time: I do not ask to
drop FBX, I ask to stop
investing time in it. Means we
would keep it working in
current state, but not try to
add/support/fix new things.<br>
<br>
<div>Le 09/02/2016 18:18,
Cremuss a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Hi,<br>
<br>
As evil as FBX is, and I
totally understand why you
think it's a dead-end (and
it is, truly), I feel it
is a necessary evil for
now.<br>
<br>
Many of us pro Game
Artists rely on FBX file
format because there's
simply no other choice
yet. I export a lot of
animated stuff to UE4 and
Unity, and dropping FBX
support in Blender would
mean I'd most certainly
have to buy and use a
proprietary 3D software to
work, which is a shame.<br>
<br>
A minimal FBX support
would still work for me
though, because, <i>personally</i>,
I just need to be able to
<i>export</i> animated
meshes and armatures,
mostly to Unity and
UDK/UE4. So dropping
support of the FBX
importer, as well as the
support of lights, cameras
and any other fancy stuff
wouldn't affect me or my
work at all. But that's
just me.<br>
<br>
However, I'm all for
supporting an open format
if it will allow me to
export animated data to
Unity/UDK/UE4 by the time
we fully drop FBX support.
But as far as I know,
there's no open FBX yet :/<br>
<br>
I know Unreal has donated
to the Blender Foundation
to work on the FBX
exporter so they seems
open and friendly to me.
Maybe there's a way to
talk to them and see what
kind of options we have.<br>
<br>
Anyway, that's just my
honest opinion!:)<br>
<br>
Le 09/02/2016 17:49,
Fillippe Chiniara a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">I think its a
bad move for the game
developers that use
blender, you would
abandon all of us
because fbx is THE
standard for game dev ,
we cant use anything
else with the modern
engines, at least
nothing with the same
level of support.</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Feb 9, 2016 14:42,
"Bastien Montagne" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:montagne29@wanadoo.fr" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:montagne29@wanadoo.fr">montagne29@wanadoo.fr</a></a>>
wrote:<br
type="attribution">
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
So, lately there's
been a lot of
FBX-related issues
reported to our<br>
tracker. Most of those
are either:<br>
- Known (half-)broken
things (like
cameras/lights
orientation issues),<br>
over which I do not
intend to spend more
time, since those are
not<br>
critical features to
support imho.<br>
- Broken corner-cases
in an area that
globally works rather
well<br>
(thinking about
skeletons here).<br>
- Mysterious
third-party
applications-related
issues (scaling,
skeletons<br>
again, etc.), that is,
bugs that show with
one app but not
another.<br>
<br>
I think later point is
a good demonstration
that FBX itself is a
failure<br>
and a dead horse - if
even rather big and
serious companies like
Unreal<br>
or Unity cannot get a
reliable FBX importer
working using official
FBX<br>
SDK, then how are we
supposed to do it
without even that SDK?<br>
<br>
Further more:<br>
- In past two years a
lot of time and energy
was invested (lost) in
FBX.<br>
- </rant> I’m
just dead sick of that
format, of hitting any
possible<br>
table corner when
trying to walk my way
in that non-sensible
pitch black<br>
box, etc.
</rant><br>
- Knowledge I gained
of this format and its
evolution is **not**<br>
encouraging at all
(stupid things like
supporting two
different and<br>
complex transform
systems [3DS max and
Maya ones, btw ;) ], a
very weird<br>
inconsistency at
binary level, etc.). I
do not have any
feeling this is<br>
a sane format, nor
that it is evolving in
a sane direction. It
seems to<br>
be defined a bit as
needs arise, piling up
new stuff over old
ones, etc.<br>
To summarize: no clear
design behind it, and
a very dirty way of<br>
handling new versions
of it.<br>
<br>
So I would claim to
stop relying on and
developing it. It
would not mean<br>
we just remove it from
Blender, but think
it’s time to switch to<br>
something more modern
and open - am aware of
at least to possible<br>
alternatives, which
could even be quite
complementary.<br>
<br>
I) glTF<br>
Promoted by Khronos
group (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.khronos.org/gltf" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.khronos.org/gltf">https://www.khronos.org/gltf</a></a>),
it aims at<br>
being the open
exchange format for
games (from simple
asset to complete<br>
scene description).<br>
Think it’s still very
new stuff, not much
widely used yet, but
it seems<br>
to have some support
from several major
companies (including
Microsoft<br>
and even - rofl -
Autodesk, see <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gltf.autodesk.io/" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://gltf.autodesk.io/">http://gltf.autodesk.io/</a></a>).<br>
<br>
II) USD<br>
Promoted by Pixar (<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://graphics.pixar.com/usd/"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://graphics.pixar.com/usd/">http://graphics.pixar.com/usd/</a></a>),
it aims at being<br>
some kind of generic
pipeline format for CG
studios (it also has<br>
integration of Alembic
e.g.).<br>
I have no idea of its
acceptance currently,
but sounds like it
could be<br>
a valuable option for
our 2.8
'pipeline/inter-application
exchange' goal?<br>
<br>
(as a side note,
interesting to see
that those two have a
similar<br>
approach, they are not
monolithic files but
rather a combination
of<br>
binary data and
textual descriptions…)<br>
<br>
Anyway, those are very
early reflections,
would like to get your<br>
feelings about those
two formats/projects
(or others you may
have in<br>
mind! ;) ), but I’m
feeling much more
enthusiast at the idea
of spending<br>
time on modern,
open-designed (or at
least, open-specified)
formats,<br>
than on piece of
proprietary crap!<br>
<br>
Again, even if we end
up deciding we stop
trying to fully
support FBX as<br>
our main exchange
format, it would keep
being supported in its
current<br>
status at least for
one or two years -
just I would not try
to add<br>
support for new
versions (2016 one
seems to have some
incompatibilities<br>
with our code
already), nor would
try to understand and
fix more stuff<br>
in that format.<br>
<br>
And that’s a long
enough mail, thanks
for reading it!<br>
Bastien<br>
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target="_blank">http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Bf-gamedev mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Bf-gamedev@blender.org" target="_blank">Bf-gamedev@blender.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev" target="_blank">http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bf-gamedev mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Bf-gamedev@blender.org"
target="_blank">Bf-gamedev@blender.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Bf-gamedev mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Bf-gamedev@blender.org" target="_blank">Bf-gamedev@blender.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev" target="_blank">http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bf-gamedev mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Bf-gamedev@blender.org">Bf-gamedev@blender.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Bf-gamedev mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Bf-gamedev@blender.org">Bf-gamedev@blender.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev">http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-gamedev</a>
</pre>
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