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I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from, Owen. This
isn't about stragglers who are refusing to adopt new standards. We
are talking about stopping support for the most widely use
interchange format in the industry, not dropping an old obsolete
feature.<br>
<br>
FBX is the de facto format right now and whether we like it or not
there simply isn't another format to replace it with at the moment.
In a few years (5+) this might change, but currently Blender just
doesn't have the clout or professional userbase to call these kinds
of shots, so if we want to be taken seriously we have to follow
where others lead and use the format that everyone else is using.<br>
<br>
The problem isn't moving to a new interchange format. It's moving to
a new interchange format alone. I'm not suggesting we don't work on
a replacement format in the meantime of course. :)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
-Andy<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/02/2016 22:40, Owen Hogarth II
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CALM2mE=KfqYetXS1CUXQxVmw36BSaL7_wsKNc-zy9jKni=W31g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Physically based rendering is coming in full force
and most if not all artists professional or hobby have to just
adopt it or get left in the past. Opengl Vulkan is coming and
eventually you adapt to it or die. One thing I don't get about
this back and fourth is the idea that this less evil is better
than that greater evil. Why not live w/o the evil. There will
always be stragglers, there's still people out there writing
programs with fixed pipeline opengl. There are people still
running windows XP out there who do not want to upgrade to
linux. It's my opinion that no matter how long you wait, it will
never be a good time to switch to something new.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>FBX export in blender works, leave it where it is and move
on to something new. As far as which new format to use, that
can be up for debate but the idea that you're still asking
should we or shouldn't we move past FBX is quite a shame.
Chicken or the egg problem, artists won't just get up ad adopt
something new. I'd say implement one of the new formats and
keep it moving.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Owen</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:30 AM,
metalliandy <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:metalliandy666@googlemail.com"
target="_blank">metalliandy666@googlemail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Hey everyone,<br>
<br>
I have mixed feelings about this to be honest. While I
don't agree with the way FBX is licensed (it should be
open sourced ASAP, IMHO), the fact remains that it is
still the current interchange format and will be for the
foreseeable future, no matter who owns the standard or how
much we dislike it.<br>
<br>
I would hate for this to turn into another crusade against
Autodesk, where we all just start blindly sharpening our
pitchforks and blindly head into the foray, because such
things only end up hurting our users in the long run. Yes,
it would be awesome to support other formats such as glTF,
Alembic and USD, but it wont mean anything if no one else
within the games industry uses them too. We would just end
up with a Blender only pipeline and "Blender is for
Blender users" crap that flew around a few years ago. Such
protectionism can only hurt Blender as you are effectively
working against de facto industry standards rather than
with them. Having a program that can't talk to other
software restricts the use of said software, and studios
are simply not going to adopt Blender only pipelines so a
competent interchange format is essential. <br>
<br>
Yes, standards do change, but this takes a <u>very</u>
long time to happen. Remember when Collada was meant to be
the new standard? Look what happened there...<br>
As of now no other format (aside from the ageing and less
feature rich OBJ) comes close the the level of industry
support that FBX has & even Pixologic, who have been
the bastion of OBJ support (even extending the format to
support vertex colours), have recently implemented FBX
support in the latest version of ZBrush to aim interop.
between applications. <br>
<br>
This is unfortunate of course, but unless we want to
alienate Blender from the rest of the 3d world stopping
support for it would be a bad move. Blender has made so
many giant leaps forward in terms of gamedev use over the
past few years and having FBX slowly break over the next
few years will do nothing but hurt Blender usability and
reputation. Most people simply don't understand or care
that we can't use the FBX SDK within Blender and will
simply assume that Blender is buggy. <br>
<br>
It's not just about current users either...we have to
think about future users that are migrating over to
Blender from Max/Maya who expect something like FBX to
just work. If they cannot simply load an FBX into Blender
without issue, they will also assume that Blender is buggy
as it can't even support FBX correctly.<br>
<br>
Next we have to think about people who use Blender on a
professional level too for things like freelance work. 80%
of the time I get meshes for texturing/baking from clients
the low poly & block out mesh part of the asset are in
the FBX format. It would be extremely embarrassing and
unprofessional of me to request OBJ in the place of FBX
and potentially jeopardise the possibility of future work
with new/especially picky clients (FWIW, I used to use FBX
converter to go from FBX to OBJ, but this is ironically no
longer supported by Autodesk).<br>
<br>
In addition to the above we also have the problem of fixed
pipelines. It is usual for studios to define a pipeline
during pre-production and maintain it rigorously at the
low level at least until the current project ends. Many
studios also run staggered production of multiple projects
using the R&D & pipelines of the previous "lead"
project and if we assume that a project will last between
2-4 years we are probably talking between 3-6 years before
pipeline changes are considered for something as integral
as interchange formats. Granted this is more likely a
problem for AAA studios and not many of them use Blender
as a main tool, but they do have freelancers who use
Blender, which will be a problem for them. It will also
rule out Blender for such studios if they were ever to
think about moving over (assuming they use FBX ofc.)<br>
<br>
Ignoring the problems with FBX isn't going to help
anything really as the problems will only get worse over
time and there is nothing we can realistically use to
replace it with.<br>
<br>
I guess that I find it hard to see how anyone can
seriously think that maintaining FBX is a waste of time
because such support is essential for the many people that
use FBX on a day to day basis. Wouldn't it only be a waste
of time if no one used it?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
-Andy
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div>On 09/02/2016 19:33, Piotr Arlukowicz wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">Standards
can change, and the sooner, the better. World
should be open and friendly, not closed and
cluttered with crap from huge companies. As I
don't have to use FBX, I vote against it every
possible time. Let's make something valuable
instead of supporting those bastards. They are
famous but their so called standards are nothing
more than bad habits. Yes, I blame autodesk and
the others for being closed, money greedy and
unfriendly to the community. That's mine five
cents.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">pio</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Piotr
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(12,52,61);display:inline">
Arlukowicz, BFCT</div>
<br>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(12,52,61)"><span
style="color:rgb(204,204,204)"><b><span
style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif"><b><span
style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif">YT:</span></b><span
style="color:rgb(162,196,201)"><span
style="font-family:arial
narrow,sans-serif"> <span
style="color:rgb(208,224,227)"><u>/user/piotao?feature=guide</u></span></span></span></span></b></span>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(12,52,61);display:inline"><span
style="color:rgb(204,204,204)"> <b><span
style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif">FB:</span></b><span
style="color:rgb(208,224,227)">
<span style="font-family:arial
narrow,sans-serif"><u>/polskikursblendera</u></span></span>
<b><span
style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif">TW:</span></b>
</span><span
style="font-family:arial
narrow,sans-serif"><u><span
style="color:rgb(19,79,92)"><span
style="color:rgb(208,224,227)">/piotao</span><br>
</span></u></span></div>
<span style="color:rgb(153,153,153)"><b><span
style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif">Blender Network:</span></b>
<b><span
style="color:rgb(118,165,175)"><span
style="font-family:arial
narrow,sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.blendernetwork.org/piotr-arlukowicz"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.blendernetwork.org/piotr-arlukowicz">https://www.blendernetwork.org/piotr-arlukowicz</a></a></span></span></b></span><br>
</div>
<span style="color:rgb(102,102,102)"><b><span
style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif">Polski Kurs
Blendera:</span></b></span> <span
style="color:rgb(11,83,148)"><span
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://polskikursblendera.pl"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://polskikursblendera.pl">http://polskikursblendera.pl</a></a></span></span><br>
<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2016-02-09 13:16
GMT-05:00 Bastien Montagne <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:montagne29@wanadoo.fr"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:montagne29@wanadoo.fr">montagne29@wanadoo.fr</a></a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Well,
once more time: I do not ask to drop FBX, I
ask to stop investing time in it. Means we
would keep it working in current state, but
not try to add/support/fix new things.<br>
<br>
<div>Le 09/02/2016 18:18, Cremuss a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Hi,<br>
<br>
As evil as FBX is, and I totally
understand why you think it's a dead-end
(and it is, truly), I feel it is a
necessary evil for now.<br>
<br>
Many of us pro Game Artists rely on FBX
file format because there's simply no
other choice yet. I export a lot of
animated stuff to UE4 and Unity, and
dropping FBX support in Blender would
mean I'd most certainly have to buy and
use a proprietary 3D software to work,
which is a shame.<br>
<br>
A minimal FBX support would still work
for me though, because, <i>personally</i>,
I just need to be able to <i>export</i>
animated meshes and armatures, mostly to
Unity and UDK/UE4. So dropping support
of the FBX importer, as well as the
support of lights, cameras and any other
fancy stuff wouldn't affect me or my
work at all. But that's just me.<br>
<br>
However, I'm all for supporting an open
format if it will allow me to export
animated data to Unity/UDK/UE4 by the
time we fully drop FBX support. But as
far as I know, there's no open FBX yet
:/<br>
<br>
I know Unreal has donated to the Blender
Foundation to work on the FBX exporter
so they seems open and friendly to me.
Maybe there's a way to talk to them and
see what kind of options we have.<br>
<br>
Anyway, that's just my honest opinion!:)<br>
<br>
Le 09/02/2016 17:49, Fillippe Chiniara a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">I think its a bad move for
the game developers that use blender,
you would abandon all of us because
fbx is THE standard for game dev , we
cant use anything else with the modern
engines, at least nothing with the
same level of support.</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Feb 9, 2016
14:42, "Bastien Montagne" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:montagne29@wanadoo.fr"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:montagne29@wanadoo.fr">montagne29@wanadoo.fr</a></a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
So, lately there's been a lot of
FBX-related issues reported to our<br>
tracker. Most of those are either:<br>
- Known (half-)broken things (like
cameras/lights orientation issues),<br>
over which I do not intend to spend
more time, since those are not<br>
critical features to support imho.<br>
- Broken corner-cases in an area
that globally works rather well<br>
(thinking about skeletons here).<br>
- Mysterious third-party
applications-related issues
(scaling, skeletons<br>
again, etc.), that is, bugs that
show with one app but not another.<br>
<br>
I think later point is a good
demonstration that FBX itself is a
failure<br>
and a dead horse - if even rather
big and serious companies like
Unreal<br>
or Unity cannot get a reliable FBX
importer working using official FBX<br>
SDK, then how are we supposed to do
it without even that SDK?<br>
<br>
Further more:<br>
- In past two years a lot of time
and energy was invested (lost) in
FBX.<br>
- </rant> I’m just dead sick
of that format, of hitting any
possible<br>
table corner when trying to walk my
way in that non-sensible pitch black<br>
box, etc. </rant><br>
- Knowledge I gained of this format
and its evolution is **not**<br>
encouraging at all (stupid things
like supporting two different and<br>
complex transform systems [3DS max
and Maya ones, btw ;) ], a very
weird<br>
inconsistency at binary level,
etc.). I do not have any feeling
this is<br>
a sane format, nor that it is
evolving in a sane direction. It
seems to<br>
be defined a bit as needs arise,
piling up new stuff over old ones,
etc.<br>
To summarize: no clear design behind
it, and a very dirty way of<br>
handling new versions of it.<br>
<br>
So I would claim to stop relying on
and developing it. It would not mean<br>
we just remove it from Blender, but
think it’s time to switch to<br>
something more modern and open - am
aware of at least to possible<br>
alternatives, which could even be
quite complementary.<br>
<br>
I) glTF<br>
Promoted by Khronos group (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.khronos.org/gltf"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.khronos.org/gltf">https://www.khronos.org/gltf</a></a>),
it aims at<br>
being the open exchange format for
games (from simple asset to complete<br>
scene description).<br>
Think it’s still very new stuff, not
much widely used yet, but it seems<br>
to have some support from several
major companies (including Microsoft<br>
and even - rofl - Autodesk, see <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gltf.autodesk.io/"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://gltf.autodesk.io/">http://gltf.autodesk.io/</a></a>).<br>
<br>
II) USD<br>
Promoted by Pixar (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://graphics.pixar.com/usd/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://graphics.pixar.com/usd/">http://graphics.pixar.com/usd/</a></a>),
it aims at being<br>
some kind of generic pipeline format
for CG studios (it also has<br>
integration of Alembic e.g.).<br>
I have no idea of its acceptance
currently, but sounds like it could
be<br>
a valuable option for our 2.8
'pipeline/inter-application
exchange' goal?<br>
<br>
(as a side note, interesting to see
that those two have a similar<br>
approach, they are not monolithic
files but rather a combination of<br>
binary data and textual
descriptions…)<br>
<br>
Anyway, those are very early
reflections, would like to get your<br>
feelings about those two
formats/projects (or others you may
have in<br>
mind! ;) ), but I’m feeling much
more enthusiast at the idea of
spending<br>
time on modern, open-designed (or at
least, open-specified) formats,<br>
than on piece of proprietary crap!<br>
<br>
Again, even if we end up deciding we
stop trying to fully support FBX as<br>
our main exchange format, it would
keep being supported in its current<br>
status at least for one or two years
- just I would not try to add<br>
support for new versions (2016 one
seems to have some incompatibilities<br>
with our code already), nor would
try to understand and fix more stuff<br>
in that format.<br>
<br>
And that’s a long enough mail,
thanks for reading it!<br>
Bastien<br>
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