[Bf-funboard] (Luke) Re: layers vs. groups, and "no render".

[Nick Winters]

Ok, I am coming into this late

but is there really a problem with the way blender's
layers are set up now?

(and please don't change terms on me, it is no fun to
explain "layer buttons" in pre 2.35 "group dialog"
after it, or something)
--- Thorsten Wilms <t_w_@freenet.de> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 11:26:55PM +1000, Luke Wenke
> wrote:
> > 
> > > For the object manager it wouldn't make much
> sense to talk about Layers.
> > > But Groups, I don't know since there could be
> single objects in the tree.
> > Sorry I don't understand what "single objects"
> are...
> 
> Entries in the manager could refer to single
> objects, like just a mesh.
> Coulb be interpreted as a group with only 1 member.
> But one should be 
> able to "unfold" groups for managing objects inside
> them, so there will 
> be single objects (that are not groups) in the tree
> anyway.
>  
> > > Hmm, no change from now, besides you want to use
> "0" instead of "10"?
> > > Better mapping with keys, but that's not much of
> a problem now. And
> > > having the numbers going from 1 to 9, followed
> by 0 will look very
> > strange.
> > I just think it would be easier to learn the
> hotkeys if the numbers say
> > "alt-0" instead of "20"... or "alt-3" instead of
> 13, etc. (And "0" instead
> > of "10")
> 
> Sorry, didn't get this the first time. Ok labeling
> the asignment buttons 
> with the actual shorcuts is a good idea.
> 
> > > > - Multiple objects or groups can be selected
> using shift-click or
> > > > ctrl-click.
> > > Shift-click yes, but ctrl-click?
> > Well I was basing a lot of it on windows explorer,
> and to select and
> > deselect spread out items, ctrl-click is used. To
> select a vertical list,
> > you click on one item then shift click the other.
> Then those two items plus
> > the ones inbetween are selected. That would make
> it quicker to select a few
> > consecutive items. But I guess that is
> inconsistent with Blender so maybe
> > only the usual shift-click selection should be
> used.
> 
> I was only thinking about Blender conventions. Good
> thing you bring up 
> standart file manager behaviour. The problem of
> possible inconsistency can 
> always be approached the other way around, that is
> adapting everything else 
> (if the benefit is large enough).
> 
>  
> > > > - The ability to swap group numbers using
> context menus.
> > > Please explain what you mean exactly / in more
> detail.
> > I mean you right-click on the groupmenu name and
> there is a pop-up menu and
> > then it says "Swap with group..." and the submenu
> shows all the group names
> > (not the group numbers). If you swap the groups
> then their orders (e.g.
> > group 1 or group 2) instantly swap.
> 
> 
> > >...And discussions about naming tend to be long
> and pointless.
> > Ok... I should stop going on about that....
> 
> See, I'm on your side about old habits vs names that
> just make sense.
> I might use whatever names I think are right in the
> proposal. And if 
> something of it is going to be implemented, we would
> still have time to 
> discuss naming.
>  
> > > No no, rendering should work exactly like
> visibility: if any of the
> > "layers"
> > > the object is "in" is set to render, the object
> will be rendered.
> > Are you saying there is no "no render" icon? It
> sounds like there is a
> > "render" icon instead. It could be a little red
> circle or square in the
> > bottom right corner. The metaphor is that it is a
> recording light. i.e.
> > "record this layer".
> 
> I wrote about indicating "no render" vs indicating
> "render" in the second 
> "Mockup" section on my page about Layers.
> 
> 
> > > But locking is realy problematic ...
> > I thought it just means that the user can't toggle
> the visibility of the
> > group/layer in the normal layer buttons. That
> seems fairly straightforward.
> 
> No. Ok, I see I have no explanation about it on my
> page, but it was in the 
> firts post of Karim I linked to. Items on a locked
> layer cannot be edited 
> (or even selected in Karim's version - I'm not sure
> about it). And visibility can 
> not be toggled without unlocking. I wouldn't include
> this last restriction.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for bringing up some good points!
> 
> ---
> Thorsten
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