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<p>Hi all,</p>
<p>My experience so far is to have teams or individual students come
up with their own proposal. Teachers evaluate these and proposals
shouldn't be identical. During a project or an assignment students
are encouraged to work together and share knowledge. And if they
copy stuff from each other that's okay as long as they are open
and honest about this. During or after a project the teams or
individual students are asked to explain how they did "things".
Also students or teams are asked to make a screencast or a
tutorial.</p>
<p>So in the school projects that I've been involved so far the
teachers don't chase cheaters, they just check whether the student
has understood the material.<br>
</p>
<p>Monique<br>
-- At Mind --<br>
-- b3d101 --<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 27-05-17 06:05, Jamie Le Rossignol
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAHN8Tvqn5DnfFU95aX0MfQ+YnBFcEURCbp4qttUVbe48eGe5AQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>The cookie cutter or lock step approach that exists in some
teaching environments does lead to 'boring' copycat
assignments. I've also taught practical technology, like
woodwork & electronics, and within that context the
student may have developed these skills and knowledge before I
ever see them. So the focus has to be different. There are
that many tutorials online these days that cover various
skills.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Personally I avoid just evaluation technical proficiency
and take the view that Blender is a tool for expressing
artistic intent. I get them to provide a boarder scope of
evidence to demonstrate their skills. For example; Using
Blender's modeling & 3D Printing tools I get the students
to;</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li>develop a concept on paper,<br>
</li>
<li>provide feedback on other's work, &<br>
</li>
<li>create model for 3D printing.<br>
</li>
</ul>
</div>
<div>To drive their creativity you could provide each student
with a randomly generated mesh to incorporate into their
design, to provide a unique key that can be linked to each
student.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would suggest that when creating tasks that use Blender
make it only one part of the assessment.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example; Creating a short 3D Animated sequence could
also include Script writing, Storyboarding, Design sketches,
Modeling, Animation, Composition, Sequencing. Of which about
half happen in Blender. In the classroom I make regular
observations of student progress to track where they are. For
online teaching you could request a regular snapshot, and
response with feedback.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the end, someone who cheats is only cheating themselves.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Jamie</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 26 May 2017 at 22:27, Piotr
Arłukowicz <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:piotao@inf.ug.edu.pl" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">piotao@inf.ug.edu.pl</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">Yes,
it seems that the motivations and staying away of
cheating is a personal, individual manner. In fact,
cheating is a significant signal sent loudly: classes
and assignments are boring and seem to be unnecessary.
However, this is education, the daily struggle with
laziness and unmotivated ppl. Indeed, more psychology
than technical stuff.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">You
all helped me understand better what the real goal
should be, and if I start to dig and detect cheats it
could mean that I failed as a teacher. Unfortunately,
students choose to study computer graphics (and my
favorite Blender) because they do not want other
classes, even harder, like calculus, etc. So, if they
choose by elimination, not by selection, they at start
are not motivated enough to take the effort.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">Thank
you! :) I understand something, but more thinking and
analyzing is necessary to avoid cheating.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">regards</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">pio</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><span class=""><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="m_2010060401526071202gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Piotr
Arłukowicz</span>, <font size="1">PhD</font>,
<font size="1">BFCT</font><br>
<span style="color:rgb(12,52,61)"><font size="1"><span
style="font-family:trebuchet
ms,sans-serif">University of Gdańsk,
Faculty of Mathematics, Physics and
Informatics, Dept. of AI,<br>
Wit Stwosz 57, 80-952 Gdańsk, room 121,
tel.: <a
href="tel:+48%2058%20523%2021%2051"
value="+48585232151" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">+48585232151</a>,
<span style="color:rgb(61,133,198)"><span
style="font-family:arial
narrow,sans-serif"><a
href="https://inf.ug.edu.pl/%7Epiotao"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://inf.ug.edu.pl/~piotao</a></span></span><br>
</span></font></span></div>
<span style="color:rgb(12,52,61)"><font size="1"><span
style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Polish
Blender Course: <span
style="color:rgb(61,133,198)"><span
style="font-family:arial
narrow,sans-serif"><a
href="http://polskikursblendera.pl/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://polskikursblendera.pl/</a></span></span>
[PL]</span></font></span><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</span>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-05-26 11:00 GMT+02:00
Ernesto Del Valle <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:cecilff@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">cecilff@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>The first thing I thought about
when I read this message is the point
that Ton refereed to. If Open Source
and Creative Commons has shown us
something is that copying is not bad.
Saying that you copied something and
not acknowledging it and the work of
someone else, is. Basically it's
lying. But using someones work and
building upon it is not bad, and is
definitively and important skill set
in Blender specifically. Is just
impossible to tell, how many times I
have reused others work as well as my
own. Just think of libraries.<br>
</div>
Of course it is important to develop the
skills of building something from
scratch, but in order to do that, one
must be really motivated to do it, so
that thing that is going to be build
from zero, must be something one really
relates to on a personal level, so it
must have one's signature. Even in that
situation, is way faster to just take
some parts or solutions already done.
Taking a solution made by some else,
also makes me think on how they solve
the problem and I can learn from that.<br>
</div>
The students must be encourage to make
their own projects with their distinctive
signature marked by their own ideas and
tastes. If the projects they are to
deliver are way too similar, and it's
easier to just copy the file and put my
name on it, I think the project is not
making them learn much anyway, but just to
repeat a set of instructions that deliver
an expected result. In art in general and
in Blender in specific, you have to be
able to solve the unforeseen problems that
arise always.<br>
</div>
So, to grade that kind of work is harder,
but the learning is completely guarantee to
be valuable and enjoyable.<br>
<br>
</div>
I love this subject, but I guess is more
suited for a pedagogy specific panel.<br>
<br>
</div>
Happy blending!<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>
<div class="m_2010060401526071202h5"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-05-25 15:37
GMT-04:00 Knapp <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:magick.crow@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">magick.crow@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">I was also thinking about
giving out team projects. This would
mean, if there were cheating, it would
at least be a team effort.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>
<div
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050h5"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu,
May 25, 2017 at 7:37 PM, Antonio
Carvalho <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:antoniorcn@hotmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">antoniorcn@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<p>Hi Piotr,</p>
<p> I'm teacher in
Brazil, working in many
classes of Java
Programming, C Programming
and cheating is a problem
faced all days.
<br>
</p>
<p> Actually I'm giving
individual works for each
student (they can choose
what they want to do), and
according to Ton
Roosendaal sugestion, I
applied a competion, each
student evaluate the job
of other 3 (or more
students), based in some
criterias, distributing a
number of specific points
for each criteria, for
sample 18 points in case
of 3 jobs, and to avoiding
have them distributing 6
points for each, without
evaluate correctly, I
penalize the students that
evaluate the jobs in
certain criteria, in
diferent way than the
other peers. <br>
</p>
<p> It looks like
complicated, but there are
some tools which allow it,
in my case I'm using
Moodle (<a
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991m_5658517853422854506moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.moodle.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.moodle.org</a>)
whoose have a kind of
exercise type named
workshop allowing this
propose, in this kind of
exercise the teacher can
specify the criterias, the
student can submit his own
work, after that the tool
will random who will
evaluate whom, and at the
end you can calculate the
average of each student.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<div
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991m_5658517853422854506moz-signature">
<p><b>Antonio Rodrigues
Carvalho Neto</b></p>
Faculdade de Tecnologia do
Estado de São Paulo
(FATEC)<br>
campus Zona Leste e
Carapicuíba<br>
Analise e Desenvolvimento
de Sistemas e
Desenvolvimento de Jogos
Digitais<br>
<a
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991m_5658517853422854506moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:antonio.rcarvalho@fatec.sp.gov.br" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">antonio.rcarvalho@fatec.sp.gov<wbr>.br</a><br>
<a
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991m_5658517853422854506moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:antoniorcn@hotmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">antoniorcn@hotmail.com</a><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991h5">
<div
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991m_5658517853422854506moz-cite-prefix">Em
25/05/2017 13:24, Ton
Roosendaal escreveu:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Hi,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When a teacher
starts putting
tricks in place to
avoid cheating he's
losing it. I
wouldn't solve the
symptom (cheating)
but the cause
(students don't like
homework or
assignments).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Give them
something that
relates to them
(build your own
bedroom) or makes it
personal (give each
a different letter
of alphabet to do
something with).
Think of a challenge
involving
competition. Or
teamwork. And they
should actually
learn skills from
it. It's the process
what counts then,
not the result. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
-Ton-<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>--------------------------<br>
Ton Roosendaal
- <a
href="mailto:ton@blender.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ton@blender.org</a> -
<a
href="http://www.blender.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.blender.org</a><br>
</div>
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
Chairman
Blender
Foundation,
Director
Blender
Institute</div>
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
Entrepotdok
57A, 1018 AD,
Amsterdam, the
Netherlands</div>
</div>
</div>
<br
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991m_5658517853422854506Apple-interchange-newline">
<br
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991m_5658517853422854506Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>On 25 May
2017, at
07:52, Piotr
Arłukowicz
<<a
href="mailto:piotao@inf.ug.edu.pl"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">piotao@inf.ug.edu.pl</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991m_5658517853422854506Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
Thanks Mike,</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
in fact, I
already was
forced to do
such
'heuristics',
because lots
of files were
'too' similar.</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
However, in
case of
animation this
is rather hard
to tell,
especially
when students
are opening
the same file
with
assignment. I
could
potentially
solve that
telling them
to import
rather than
open, and then
such lovely
random string
or just
something
(creation
timestamp?)
will be a nice
addition to
the normal
Blender.</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
How many
teachers are
still here?
Don't have any
of you
cheating
problems?</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
Maybe it's a
good idea to
create such a
plugin, where
student can
'submit' the
work right
from
Blender...</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
pio</div>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br
clear="all">
<div>
<div
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991m_5658517853422854506gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
<span
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Piotr
Arłukowicz</span>,
<font size="1">
PhD</font>, <font
size="1">BFCT</font><br>
<span
style="color:rgb(12,52,61)"><font
size="1"><span
style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">University of Gdańsk,
Faculty of
Mathematics,
Physics and
Informatics,
Dept. of AI,<br>
Wit Stwosz 57,
80-952 Gdańsk,
room 121,
tel.: <a
href="tel:+48%2058%20523%2021%2051"
value="+48585232151" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+48585232151</a>,
<span
style="color:rgb(61,133,198)">
<span
style="font-family:arial
narrow,sans-serif"><a href="https://inf.ug.edu.pl/%7Epiotao"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://inf.ug.edu.pl/~piotao</a></span></span><br>
</span></font></span></div>
<span
style="color:rgb(12,52,61)"><font
size="1"><span
style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Polish Blender Course:
<span
style="color:rgb(61,133,198)"><span
style="font-family:arial narrow,sans-serif"><a
href="http://polskikursblendera.pl/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://polskikursblendera.pl/</a></span></span>
[PL]</span></font></span><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">2017-05-25
0:12 GMT+02:00
Mike Pan <span
dir="ltr">
<<a
href="mailto:mike.c.pan@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mike.c.pan@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Very
interesting
question...
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You can
certainly
build an addon
that saves a
random string
of some sort
into the Blend
file. Or even
something that
tracks the
originating
computer name
and total time
spent editing
the file (to
prevent
copy+paste
from
blendswap/turbosquid)
but the
students can
always
'forget' to
use the
correct blend
version or the
addon.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think a
more
fool-proof
approach might
be to analyze
the students'
files based on
a bunch of
heuristics.
This way, the
blender file
doesn't have
to be special,
but you can
still catch
copycats.
Here are some
things you can
look at:</div>
<div>-
Datablock
names.
Especially
mesh, material
and image
names, which
is something
many people
don't bother
changing.</div>
</div>
<div>- Node
positions.
Even if the
material is
identical,
chances are
the nodes are
arranged
differently.
(unless they
are using the
material panel
to generate
all the nodes)</div>
<div>- Look at
exact value of
properties?
(eg. If both
students are
using a
particle
system,
unlikely they
are both
emitting
exactly 2740
particles from
frame 77-333)</div>
<div>- if an
image texture
has been
packed and not
"made
relative" yet,
it might
contain the
full path of
the image,
which is
telling if it
originated
from another
user/computer.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That's
all i can
think of for
now. Hope that
helps,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mike</div>
<br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991m_5658517853422854506h5">
<div dir="ltr">On
Wed, 24 May
2017 at 12:14
Piotr
Arłukowicz
<<a
href="mailto:piotao@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">piotao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991m_5658517853422854506h5">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
Hi all,</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
is there any
way for a
teacher to
tell whether
or not some
files in the
class, which
were collected
from an
assignment,
are copied
from the same
person or were
created on the
same computer?</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
I have classes
and I have
collected
quite a few
blend files to
check. They
are similar in
few areas, so
I'm unsure if
they were
created by
different
persons.</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
To solve this
problem Julian
wrote a small
patch few
years ago
which stored a
random number
inside blend
file (so I
could at least
tell if
somebody
copied
somebody's
else work and
modified it
slightly), but
unfortunately
I've got a
bunch of files
made in just
an ordinary,
brand blender
release 2.78.</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
Files from
students are
suspiciously
similar (for
example a
manipulator is
often set to
rotate, not
translate).</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
So, is there
ANY way to
tell?</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
If not, it
could be a
good idea to
introduce just
a random
number or
microsecond
stored when
file is
created and
then never
changed. This
small thing
could make
life easier
and could also
detects nasty
cheating,
which,
unfortunately
happens too
often in some
countries :(</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
anybody?</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
regards</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0c343d">
pio</div>
<br
clear="all">
<div>
<div
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991m_5658517853422854506m_-2054766672883919685m_6857213270118875390m_-3719855621363590782gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">pz<br>
piotr<br>
--<br>
Piotr
Arlukowicz<br>
<tt>-----BEGIN
GEEK CODE
BLOCK-----<br>
Version: 3.1<br>
GCS/ED/IT/S
d++(-)>--pu
s(+):(+)> a
C++(+++)$@>++++$ ULAVISC*()$>+++$ P++(+++)$>++++
L++(+++)$@>++++$
!E---(---)>++ W++(+++)$@>+++ N(+)>++ o--? !K-(-)>-$
w++(+)>--
!O-(-)>-
!M-(-)>--
!V-(-)>-
PS(+)>++
!PE()>+ Y
PGP>+ t(-)
!5? !X
R()>* tv-
b++ DI++
D+(++)>+++
G++@
e++++>+++++
h---()>++
r+++ y+++ <br>
------END GEEK
CODE
BLOCK------ </tt></div>
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</div>
<span
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888">-- <br>
<div
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050m_-6785603800039363991gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Douglas E Knapp,
MSAOM, LAc.<br>
</div>
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<br>
-- <br>
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<div
class="m_2010060401526071202m_-7460748879396771050gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Linux User
#412877 - <a href="http://counter.li.org/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://counter.li.org/</a><br>
Macuare Producciones - <a
href="http://www.macuare.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.macuare.org</a></div>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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