<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Dropping age mention altogether is fine. Bastien's wording feels fine for me:</div><div class=""><ul style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><li class="">People educated on CG, who already understand the basics of 3D and/or know other 3D software.</li></ul><div class="">Tobias: it's especially the beginner-based pages that made me propose the manual focus. I noticed some disappeared already (like the rigging page), which is nice. But it's still weird in places; for example this:</div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/animation/keyframes/introduction.html" class="">https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/animation/keyframes/introduction.html</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"Keyframes" is not a good first mental model to explain how Blender animation works.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Same here - is confusing.</div><div class=""><a href="https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/animation/actions.html" class="">https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/animation/actions.html</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Blender works with Actions, which have channels, and these have curves. The curve consists of points, usually Beziers. </div><div class="">The term "inserting key" means you insert a bezier point with handles in a curve in a specific channel. These points get visualized as keys in dopesheets.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Explaining Blender from the point of the designer (how it works) will lead to much less confused users, and to much better understanding for mastering it without reading a manual all the time. That's why I suggested to also focus on presenting the big picture, to make people understand the inner workings in general.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">-Ton-<br class=""><br class="">--------------------------------------------------------<br class="">Ton Roosendaal - <a href="mailto:ton@blender.org" class="">ton@blender.org</a> - <a href="http://www.blender.org" class="">www.blender.org</a><br class="">Chairman Blender Foundation, Director Blender Institute<br class="">Entrepotdok 57A, 1018 AD, Amsterdam, the Netherlands</div>
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<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 8 Dec 2017, at 19:20, Tobias Heinke <<a href="mailto:heinke.tobias@t-online.de" class="">heinke.tobias@t-online.de</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="">Hi all,<br class=""><br class="">It should be a credo/creed - it doesn't have to be accurate or even realistic. It's what we try to achieve (in a perfect world).<br class="">And about what makes the manual different from other source of info about B. The aim should be one condense sentence.<br class=""><br class="">I generally like the current mission statement, but what about replacing the "you" with "readers".<br class="">It's an info for people who hopefully become contributors and not for the readers. Also the triple "to" should be addressed:<br class=""><br class=""> "This manual aims to be a complete and concise source of information to help (the) readers (to) become familiar with the application."<br class=""><br class="">About Ton's remarks:<br class="">The described target group is/should be only the core audience. (as already pointed out)<br class="">An age is only a codification of certain skills reached (by school edu.) with ~18: advanced math & physics and basic computer science.<br class="">Expecting basic 3D is contrary to the current situation. We explain the basics e.g. what an edge, face, or a keyframe is, but not advanced/expert topics.<br class="">The "internal (technical) design" would mean data-blocks, dependency graph? such topics are currently barely covert would be<br class="">only of interest for experts and add-on devs. That would be on the edge to code documentation.<br class=""><br class="">Regards,<br class="">Tobias<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Am 08.12.2017 um 12:19 schrieb Diego Borghetti:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Unless we have a legal reason for it ?<br class=""><br class="">On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Diego Borghetti <<a href="mailto:bdiego@gmail.com" class="">bdiego@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">The manual already have that:<br class=""><br class="">People from 18 years and older.<br class="">People who already understand the basics of 3D and/or know other 3D software.<br class=""><br class="">I would say just drop the line ("People from 18 years and older".)<br class="">If you don't want to drop the line, my question will be "why is for<br class="">people from 18 years and older" ?<br class="">It's a software manual for people using the software. You can ask for<br class="">some level of know, like you already do in the second line, and that<br class="">is fine.<br class=""><br class="">I don't really see a point for the 18 years and older.<br class=""><br class="">Just my two cents,<br class="">Diego<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Bastien Montagne <<a href="mailto:montagne29@wanadoo.fr" class="">montagne29@wanadoo.fr</a>> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Maybe we could use the word 'educated' here? AFAIK (granted, am not an<br class="">native English speaker ;) ), it designates someone who has already reached a<br class="">minimal level of knowledge on the topic…<br class=""><br class="">So something like that:<br class=""><br class="">Educated people, who already understand the basics of 3D and/or know other<br class="">3D software.<br class=""><br class="">Or:<br class=""><br class="">People educated on CG, who already understand the basics of 3D and/or know<br class="">other 3D software.<br class=""><br class="">This removes any age target, while still implying that you've done your<br class="">homework and are not a total beginner expecting for CG 101 content…<br class=""><br class="">Bastien<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Le 08/12/2017 à 11:58, ken a écrit :<br class=""><br class="">Rather than attempting to wrestle with an age range, why not instead speak<br class="">in experiential terms such as, 'anyone who plays intelligent chess or can<br class="">read and understand a road map can probably learn to use Blender."? Do<br class="">people build models anymore...? if so, that would be an indicative skill.<br class="">Can anyone suggest others, or others which are better and/or more suitable?<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">On 12/08/2017 04:47 AM, Ton Roosendaal wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Hi,<br class=""><br class="">Can a native english writer provide a better sentence then? Here in NL we<br class="">don't have such annotations when it comes to age.<br class="">Just like for games, books or movies, a manual can have a target audience.<br class=""><br class="">Also - as a high school kid I loved to read technology books or novels meant<br class="">for an adult audience. But I started with the stuff meant for kids first.<br class="">How do you classify that?<br class=""><br class="">-Ton-<br class=""><br class="">--------------------------------------------------------<br class="">Ton Roosendaal - <a href="mailto:ton@blender.org" class="">ton@blender.org</a> - <a href="http://www.blender.org" class="">www.blender.org</a><br class="">Chairman Blender Foundation, Director Blender Institute<br class="">Entrepotdok 57A, 1018 AD, Amsterdam, the Netherlands<br class=""><br class="">On 8 Dec 2017, at 10:13, ken <<a href="mailto:cousin@newcultures.com" class="">cousin@newcultures.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">On 12/08/2017 12:35 AM, Greg Zaal wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Is it really necessary to mention age? There are many serious and impressive<br class="">blender users younger than 18. Implying "this manual is for people older<br class="">than 18" has other connotations ;)<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Agreed. And parents, teachers, and librarians and others are called upon to<br class="">quickly categorize materials and many want to avoid controversy.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 at 10:10 Campbell Barton <<a href="mailto:ideasman42@gmail.com" class="">ideasman42@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Hi, updated the page based on this text:<br class=""><a href="https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/about/introduction.html" class="">https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/about/introduction.html</a><br class=""><br class="">On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 2:16 AM, Ton Roosendaal <ton@blender.org> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Hi Aaron,<br class=""><br class="">Thanks for the proposal to clarify that.<br class="">However, the line is for me too vague and can be interpretated as you<br class="">wish.<br class="">Especially the "to help you" is undefined.<br class=""><br class="">To me it is more like this:<br class=""><br class="">Target group:<br class="">- people from 18 years and older<br class="">- people who already understand the basics of 3D and/or know other 3D<br class="">programs<br class=""><br class="">The manual has as a goal to provide:<br class="">- Insight in Blender's way of working, its internal (technical) design -<br class="">in<br class="">order to understand options and tools.<br class="">- detailed functional description of every feature, tool or option in<br class="">Blender.<br class=""><br class="">Regards,<br class=""><br class="">-Ton-<br class=""><br class="">--------------------------------------------------------<br class="">Ton Roosendaal - ton@blender.org - www.blender.org<br class="">Chairman Blender Foundation, Director Blender Institute<br class="">Entrepotdok 57A, 1018 AD, Amsterdam, the Netherlands<br class=""><br class="">On 1 Dec 2017, at 19:50, Aaron Carlisle <carlisle.b3d@gmail.com> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Hi all,<br class=""><br class="">Something that has been raised to my attention recently is that the<br class="">manual<br class="">does not have<br class="">one defining purpose. This has caused the manual to have different<br class="">purposes<br class="">and people<br class="">having their own agendas. We do currently have a vision statement but it<br class="">is<br class="">not very good<br class="">and should be expanded on farther:<br class=""><br class="">"This manual aims to be a complete and concise source of information<br class="">to help you to become familiar with the application."<br class=""><br class="">https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/about/introduction.html<br class=""><br class="">So, the purpose of this email is to reconsider the above statement and<br class="">discuss things that<br class="">should be changed and/or added.<br class=""><br class="">Thanks,<br class=""><br class="">Aaron Carlisle<br class=""><br class="">Picture taker | Bit cruncher | Pixel pusher | Document writer | Artist<br class="">Project administrator for the Blender 3D Documentation Project<br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Bf-docboard mailing list<br class="">Bf-docboard@blender.org<br class="">https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Bf-docboard mailing list<br class="">Bf-docboard@blender.org<br class="">https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class="">--<br class="">- Campbell<br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Bf-docboard mailing list<br class="">Bf-docboard@blender.org<br class="">https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard<br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Bf-docboard mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Bf-docboard@blender.org" class="">Bf-docboard@blender.org</a><br class="">https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Bf-docboard mailing list<br class="">Bf-docboard@blender.org<br class="">https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Bf-docboard mailing list<br class="">Bf-docboard@blender.org<br class="">https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Bf-docboard mailing list<br class="">Bf-docboard@blender.org<br class="">https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Bf-docboard mailing list<br class="">Bf-docboard@blender.org<br class="">https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class="">--<br class="">--<br class=""><br class=""> Diego<br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Bf-docboard mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Bf-docboard@blender.org" class="">Bf-docboard@blender.org</a><br class="">https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard<br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>