<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div id="bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: rgba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;"><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px; ">Hello Ivan,</div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px; ">your questions are not easy to answer at this point, but I thought I'd let you know that we are almost done with a complete Sphinx-based version of the Blender Manual.</div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px; "><br></div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px; ">How/When this will replace the English Wiki Manual is not known yet and for the moment the Wiki version will keep existing alongside the translations.</div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px; "><br></div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px; ">I invite you to check out the Sphinx-based version though, because in the long run it might be easier to update and translate.</div><div id="bloop_customfont" style="margin: 0px; "><br></div></div> Francesco<br><p style="color:#000;">On May 28, 2014 at 1:48:28 PM, Ivan Paulos Tomé (<a href="mailto:greylica@gmail.com">greylica@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>
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<div>OK,<br>
<br></div>
After the last conversations in IRC, I was able to
understand.<br></div>
<div>The blenderwiki project will continue here for us.<br>
<br></div>
I have another question:<br></div>
Since rna_wiki_reference.py is the direct link to the wiki
manual,<br></div>
and the plan is to link Blender with the html docs, what can<br>
we do about translated manuals ?<br></div>
<br></div>
I mean, I have been using the file rna_wiki_reference.py
to<br></div>
link Blender translated to pt_BR and pt<br>
to this manual: (And I was working to link them with the EN wiki
too) :<br>
<br>
<a href="http://wiki.blenderfarmbrasil.com.br/index.php/Doc:PT/2.6/Manual">http://wiki.blenderfarmbrasil.com.br/index.php/Doc:PT/2.6/Manual</a><br>
<br></div>
So, the question is if will we still be able to use this file to
link<br>
localized interfaces with their proper translated manual
pages.<br></div>
<br></div>
If the plan is to add another option in the right click
context,<br>
in which we can link to localized manpages as well as to localized
wikis,<br>
I will consider this move a very good move, because we will be able
to consult<br></div>
</div>
</div>
the best of both worlds. We can see the manual that Blender
Foundation<br></div>
<div>will provide us, and at the same time, translate/localize
those pages<br></div>
<div>in the wiki contexts using rna_wiki_reference.py.<br></div>
<div><br></div>
Cheers !<br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2014-05-28 7:00 GMT-03:00 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bf-docboard-request@blender.org" target="_blank">bf-docboard-request@blender.org</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Bf-docboard Digest, Vol 111, Issue 9 (Ivan
Paulos Tom?)<br>
2. Re: Bf-docboard Digest, Vol 111, Issue 9 (Campbell
Barton)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 10:52:52 -0300<br>
From: Ivan Paulos Tom? <<a href="mailto:greylica@gmail.com">greylica@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Bf-docboard] Bf-docboard Digest, Vol 111, Issue
9<br>
To: <a href="mailto:bf-docboard@blender.org">bf-docboard@blender.org</a><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CA%2BZt8s7o8WdzauRtLUN3_CE-5S%2BYT8vb0pERfdpAd5jsTtdzkQ@mail.gmail.com">CA+Zt8s7o8WdzauRtLUN3_CE-5S+YT8vb0pERfdpAd5jsTtdzkQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
Hi !<br>
<br>
It seems to me (by those e-mails) that it's the end of the
blenderwiki<br>
project...<br>
Is there a way to make a meeting in IRC about this issue next
sunday ?<br>
<br>
Cheers !<br>
Ivan Paulos Tom?.<br>
<br>
<br>
2014-05-27 7:00 GMT-03:00 <<a href="mailto:bf-docboard-request@blender.org">bf-docboard-request@blender.org</a>>:<br>
<br>
> Send Bf-docboard mailing list submissions to<br>
> <a href="mailto:bf-docboard@blender.org">bf-docboard@blender.org</a><br>
><br>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
visit<br>
> <a href="http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard" target="_blank">http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard</a><br>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'
to<br>
> <a href="mailto:bf-docboard-request@blender.org">bf-docboard-request@blender.org</a><br>
><br>
> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
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><br>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
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> than "Re: Contents of Bf-docboard digest..."<br>
><br>
><br>
> Today's Topics:<br>
><br>
> 1. Re: Documentation status and upgrade proposal
(Gaia)<br>
> 2. Re: Documentation status and upgrade proposal
(Francesco Siddi)<br>
><br>
><br>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 14:11:28 +0200<br>
> From: Gaia <<a href="mailto:gaia.clary@machinimatrix.org">gaia.clary@machinimatrix.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Bf-docboard] Documentation status and upgrade
proposal<br>
> To: Blender Documentation Project <<a href="mailto:bf-docboard@blender.org">bf-docboard@blender.org</a>><br>
> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:53832F70.70901@machinimatrix.org">53832F70.70901@machinimatrix.org</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed<br>
><br>
> What is the status of this migration project from wiki to
Sphinx ?<br>
> What are we waiting for ?<br>
> What is the next step ?<br>
> What does it need to get the next step done ?<br>
><br>
> Is there a way to transform the wiki documentation into
Sphinx<br>
> by using scripted converters ? so that we can be sure
everything<br>
> is in place when we start to improve the documentation ?<br>
><br>
> cheers,<br>
> Gaia<br>
><br>
> On 08.05.2014 23:24, Campbell Barton wrote:<br>
> > @Gaia<br>
> ><br>
> > Yep, I suggest to replace old crap with new crap :),
mainly to split<br>
> > the project into manageable chunks.<br>
> ><br>
> > I worry if rewriting a manual and switching to a new
platform are done<br>
> > as one step it may take a lot longer (years even).<br>
> > And if one fails (either the new system or the rewrite),
we are left<br>
> > with something unusable - a half written manual.<br>
> ><br>
> > If we try to switch to a new technology and fail, then we
can blame<br>
> > the technology... and try something else, or go back to
what we have.<br>
> ><br>
> > If rewriting the manual fails, we can blame our own
ability to write<br>
> > :)... and still end up with better tools/technology and
(somewhat<br>
> > improved docs) - even if we dont manage to get all up to
a higher<br>
> > quality.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Something I want to avoid is to be in an unknown state
for a long<br>
> > time, while we move to a new system we probably want to
freeze all<br>
> > edits to the Wiki manual, but we should try keep that
time period as<br>
> > short as possible IMHO (weeks - some months max).<br>
> ><br>
> > I realize moving existing docs over may feel like a bad
start, but at<br>
> > least we can do this without long discussions on
subjective matters<br>
> > such as writing style and can even automate the process
to some<br>
> > extent.<br>
> ><br>
> > If we want to rip out chapters and rewrite after, then
theres no<br>
> > problems with that.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 12:47 AM, Gaia <<a href="mailto:gaia.clary@machinimatrix.org">gaia.clary@machinimatrix.org</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> >> Hi;<br>
> >><br>
> >> As much as i would like to get this migration done
quickly,<br>
> >> i still have doubts about what you propose as the
migration path.<br>
> >> I just write down what i think and believe and i just
try to be<br>
> >> straight :)<br>
> >><br>
> >> On 08.05.2014 05:46, Campbell Barton wrote:<br>
> >>> Suggest not attempt to improve docs at the same
time as migrating to<br>
> >>> new system, runs risk of migration never getting
done.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> First just migrate all wiki docs to new manual
`as-is`.<br>
> >> Well, the current wiki is a mixture of documents that
have been migrated<br>
> >> from Blender 2.4 and newer work. And it looks to me
like the old<br>
> documents<br>
> >> tend to be mostly kept as they are because nobody
ever wanted(dared?) to<br>
> >> touch them.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Why would that change when the wiki is migrated one
to one to a newer<br>
> >> platform ? How would documentors become motiviated to
finally change<br>
> >> documents which have already been kept untouched for
years ?<br>
> >><br>
> >> I am afraid that when the transition to another
documentation platform<br>
> >> is made by "first copy what we have, then think about
restructuring"<br>
> will<br>
> >> in the best case end with a better structure lots of
reorganising work<br>
> >> and tons of outdated documents.<br>
> >><br>
> >> And then document creators still have to decide for
each document<br>
> whether<br>
> >> it needs to be rewritten, removed, or just updated to
newer information.<br>
> >><br>
> >> From user point of view, it looks more like
"replace old crap with new<br>
> >> crap" ;-/<br>
> >> and you can never be sure if what you see in the docs
is up to date.<br>
> >>> If some docs are very low quality or out of date,
they could be left<br>
> out.<br>
> >> What are the criterions for classifying a document as
low quality ?<br>
> >><br>
> >>> After that. organize how to improve docs
themselves, perhaps focus on<br>
> >>> 1-2 chapters just to prove the new system works
well.<br>
> >> Why not just work in the opposite way? Why not first
think about a good<br>
> >> structure, define what shall be put into the docs and
what should be<br>
> >> left out ?<br>
> >> Then start the new documentation (something easy for
the beginning) ,<br>
> >> improve<br>
> >> the general document structuring while working on one
initial chapter,<br>
> >> use the "old wiki" where appropriate, but copy
information only after<br>
> >> careful<br>
> >> inspection (word by word...)<br>
> >><br>
> >> This approach would start with a blank documentation.
While working on<br>
> >> the docs the overall structure might change over
time. But it would be a<br>
> >> very<br>
> >> honest approach at least:<br>
> >><br>
> >> 1.) The users can SEE how the documentation
grows,<br>
> >> 2.) The document creators can ensure that whatever
gets into the new<br>
> >> documentation is mostly up to date at the time when
it was created.<br>
> >><br>
> >>> At that point we probably know if this is
something to stick with (and<br>
> >>> remove wiki manual), or if for some reason its a
lot worse and can't<br>
> >>> be improved, we scrap the migration
altogether.<br>
> >> I also believe that putting work into "define the
document structure"<br>
> >> can be made<br>
> >> independent from what platform is actually used.
Actually i even could<br>
> see<br>
> >> that we first define a robust and user friendly
structure in the wiki,<br>
> then<br>
> >> start to reorganize the documentation in the wiki (to
prove the<br>
> >> restructuring)<br>
> >> and finally think about migration to a platform that
supports<br>
> >><br>
> >> - versioning and<br>
> >> - internationalisation<br>
> >><br>
> >> The proposed platform looks good to me, i also can
live without having<br>
> >> a web frontend and a Wysiwyg editor. But i suspect
that first selecting<br>
> >> the technology then thinking about how it can be used
is the wrong<br>
> >> approach :)<br>
> >><br>
> >> And i would rather see a small document collection
that is correct<br>
> >> than a large collection where the user never knows if
a document<br>
> >> in it is reliable or not.<br>
> >><br>
> >> cheers,<br>
> >> Gaia<br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> Bf-docboard mailing list<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:Bf-docboard@blender.org">Bf-docboard@blender.org</a><br>
> >> <a href="http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard" target="_blank">http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-docboard</a><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 2<br>
> Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 14:39:04 +0200<br>
> From: Francesco Siddi <<a href="mailto:francesco.siddi@gmail.com">francesco.siddi@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Bf-docboard] Documentation status and upgrade
proposal<br>
> To: Blender Documentation Project <<a href="mailto:bf-docboard@blender.org">bf-docboard@blender.org</a>><br>
> Message-ID:
<etPan.538335e8.4516dde9.308e@fsiddi-macpro.local><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 26 May 2014 at 14:12:07, Gaia (<a href="mailto:gaia.clary@machinimatrix.org">gaia.clary@machinimatrix.org</a>)
wrote:<br>
><br>
> What is the status of this migration project from wiki to
Sphinx ??<br>
> We were investigating some tools to automate part of the
initial work?<br>
> <a href="https://github.com/ideasman42/blender_manual/commit/d1112412cbec34d4fba07e11408828a37a5ab350" target="_blank">https://github.com/ideasman42/blender_manual/commit/d1112412cbec34d4fba07e11408828a37a5ab350</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> What are we waiting for ??<br>
> We are waiting to do a couple more tests and make a public
plan so that<br>
> volunteers can contribute in checking the generated RST docs.
At the moment<br>
> the translations and illustrations issues are being
evaluated.<br>
><br>
><br>
> What is the next step ??<br>
> The next step would be announcing a migration plan on this
list. I?ve been<br>
> meaning to do this for a bit, will do asap.<br>
><br>
><br>
> What does it need to get the next step done ??<br>
> I?ll have another look at the whole thread of mails, summarise
and write<br>
> the plan (after consulting with Campbell).<br>
><br>
><br>
> Is there a way to transform the wiki documentation into
Sphinx?<br>
> by using scripted converters ? so that we can be sure
everything?<br>
> is in place when we start to improve the documentation
??<br>
> Yes there is a way (see first link). It will not be magic, so
some people<br>
> need to be around during that time of transition.<br>
><br>
> Francesco<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 02:43:54 +1000<br>
From: Campbell Barton <<a href="mailto:ideasman42@gmail.com">ideasman42@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Bf-docboard] Bf-docboard Digest, Vol 111, Issue
9<br>
To: Blender Documentation Project <<a href="mailto:bf-docboard@blender.org">bf-docboard@blender.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAEcf3NxuHBPq6790igQuOQoVyyvorBDpmKYgSxZGbWjaQtcOhg@mail.gmail.com">CAEcf3NxuHBPq6790igQuOQoVyyvorBDpmKYgSxZGbWjaQtcOhg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Ivan Paulos Tom? <<a href="mailto:greylica@gmail.com">greylica@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Hi !<br>
><br>
> It seems to me (by those e-mails) that it's the end of the
blenderwiki<br>
> project...<br>
> Is there a way to make a meeting in IRC about this issue next
sunday ?<br>
><br>
> Cheers !<br>
> Ivan Paulos Tom?.<br>
<br>
This isn't the plan,<br>
<br>
If you check the main wiki page:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://wiki.blender.org" target="_blank">http://wiki.blender.org</a><br>
<br>
The only difference will be "User Manual" will link to generated
html docs,<br>
just like the "Python API Reference" does currently.<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
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<br>
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