<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hello everyone,<div><br></div><div>I am really happy that this mailing list appeared and I hope to see great discussions here that will help us making Blender's Compositor the best compositing tool ever. :-)</div><div>Many topics have been already touched here. Thank you Sebastian for making the list that we all can treat as the starting point for discussion.</div><div>As for organizing our discussion it would be good to touch one topic at the time, so that we can discuss it deeply.</div><div>I have my own opinion on almost every point from Sebastian's list, but I will share them in separate threads.</div><div>@Sebastian: If you decide to split your topics into separate threads, I would like to wait.</div><div>Thank you Monique, Jeroen, and Lukas for all your effort to understand and address the users' needs.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br><div apple-content-edited="true">
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Bartek Skorupa</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.bartekskorupa.com">www.bartekskorupa.com</a></div></div></span></span></span>
</div>
<br><div><div>On 2 lis 2013, at 16:25, Francesco Paglia <<a href="mailto:f.paglia.80@gmail.com">f.paglia.80@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">I'm very happy to see so many people interested in discussing about the compositor!<div>As Jeroen said it's very important to set a wiki page where all the relevant issue raised in this list are kept updated and managed in a consistent way.</div>
<div>If Sebastian would lead this role I'm very happy to endorse him because I think he has the right attitude and skills to do it! :) </div><div><br></div><div>Another advice I would suggest is to keep threads easily recognizable setting one topic each so we don't have to surf though dozen of mail to find the answer or the question we are looking for.</div>
<div>If you don't mind Seb I'd like you would split all the interesting topic you put in your previous mail into as many threads as the topics are.</div><div><br></div><div>If you all agree would be even cooler if we can set a convention in the thread naming so we can easily recognize the content.</div>
<div><br></div><div>As I can see the topic could be:</div><div><br></div><div>- enhancement </div><div>- new feature</div><div><br></div><div>we can set a sort of prefix like [enh] and [feat] what do you think of this idea?</div>
<div><br></div><div>I also think in the wiki page we should set both list to keep things clearer and to have more people that could get involved as dev... (I imagine if someone who wants to jump in the compositor development should start with a standalone node instead of trying to solve problem that only Jeroen can handle efficiently) </div>
<div><br></div><div>From an user point of view I think priority has to go to tasks that prevent us to fully use the blender compositor (and canvas limits as well as complete recalculation of the node tree really are) but I imagine that some issues aren't just related to the compositor itself and the developers should help us understand the complexity behind and what can really be done so we can discuss further trying to keep at an high level the usability as well ... :)</div>
<div><br></div><div> </div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2013/11/2 blenderleo <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:blenderleo@gmx.de" target="_blank">blenderleo@gmx.de</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>@Sebastian:<br>
caching the nodes would probably also fix the undo issue.<br>
<br>
Am <a href="tel:02.11.2013%2013" value="+390211201313" target="_blank">02.11.2013 13</a>:20, schrieb Lukas Tönne:<br>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Sebastian: Could you create a few test files to
demonstrate the sampling issues?<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 11:24 AM,
Sebastian König <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:koenig.sebastian@gmx.net" target="_blank">koenig.sebastian@gmx.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; margin: 0px; ">Hey
all!</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; margin: 0px; "><br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px">
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">Great
to see this list as place for discussions about the
compositor! Let’s form a Compositor Task-Force! </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">From
the talks with Jeroen and Monique at the Blender
Conference I think we the users should first agree
on what has to be fixed in the compositor and then
give that list to the developers. </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">So
here is my list of things I would like to see fixed
in the compositor. They are ordered by importance.
Probably I forgot some things, but for the time
being these are the things I would like to see
fixed. </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><b>##
Performance enhancement</b></font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">1.
Be smarter about how to update nodes. Currently it
feels as if the compositor would go over the entire
node-tree and see what it has to do, even if all
thumbnails and composite output are collapsed and
there is only the viewer node connected to an image
at the very start of the node tree.</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">2.
Get rid of thumbnail previews, or at least make them
collapsed by default.</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px">
<font face="Helvetica, Arial">For me they have zero
benefit, take up too much space in the composite
layout, and suck performance. Just get rid of them!</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">3.
Keep nodes in memory</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">Related
to the cache issue is that the compositor should be
smarter when it comes to updates of node trees.</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">It
should detect what nodes have to be updated for the
correct results and which nodes can be just kept in
the buffer. I suppose this can be tricky
memory-wise, but the current way of entirely
re-calculating the whole node-tree just because of
some change at the very end of it just sucks. </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">4.
Lower resolutions for compositing. </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">To
check the overall result of the compositing you
don't need to see the full resolution of composite.
Having to render with different render dimensions
however is a bit tedious. It would be nice to be
able to set compositor to half or quarter
resolutions to perform the composite. In the end you
could then proceed to final resolution.</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">5.
Cache Nodes</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">For
a lot of VFX compositing you cannot only composite
for 1 frame, you have to see it in motion. Rendering
out final sequences is a bit tedious and not an
ideal solution. Therefore it would be great to have
some kind of cache for playback. </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">Something
that I imagine to be rather easy to do would be to
have a cache node. You could drag it between any
noodle, and that output would be cache for a give
frame range. It could be cached either in RAM or on
some kind of temp folder on hard drive. That way you
can pre-render several cache sequences to both have
a playback available, but also to stop one node tree
from having to calculate all the time. </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">One
state of the node is „locked“. It assumes to have a
pre-rendered sequence in cache and won’t calculate
the node tree that leads into it. </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px">
<font face="Helvetica, Arial">Second state of the node
is „record“. It will store any frame of the of the
sequence in cache. </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">Third
state could be „passthrough“ or so, in case the
cache node should just be ignored.</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">What
i think would be nice about this method is that you
can define some kind of milestones in your node
tree.</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><b><br>
</b></font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><b>##
Functionality</b></font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">1.
Make all nodes relative</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">We
have some nodes that allow a relative setting (blur
size for example), while others only allow fixed
pixel size (dilate erode). In practice that is
really annoying because usually you start rendering
and compositing at 50% and only for the final images
you proceed to 100%. The compositor should have a
unified setting for the size. Probably some thinking
has to go into this, how to handle a pixel size
setting, or if everything should be set in
percentage, or, if you want to use pixels, if it
should be relative pixels in relation to render
dimensions.</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">2.
Better sampling</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">The
current sampling sucks. For example the plane track
node makes images incredibly blurry. I discussed
that already with Jeroen at the Blender Conference,
and apparently the entire sampling system has to be
rewritten. But it would be worth it! :)</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">3.
Masking</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">Currently
the Roto-workflow is still a bit clunky. </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">Personally
I would propose to merge clip-editor and uv/image
editor. Because then we could do masking, tracking
and painting of patches for compositing in 1 editor,
which would be really nice. </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">But
I think this is a bigger issues, and maybe can be
discussed separately. </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px">
<font face="Helvetica, Arial">4. Canvas</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">The
compositor is missing a better way to deal with
different image dimensions. Arranging images and
sequences freely on the canvas is important for
compositing. </font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">5.
Overscan</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">Related
to the canvas topic is „overscan“ (hope it’s the
right term), to allow rendering bigger than the
final dimensions. That is needed for various things
for example to be able to distort CG elements and
composite them over footage with lens distortion.</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px">
<font face="Helvetica, Arial"><b>## Wait, there’s
more!</b></font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">Apart
from the already mentioned issues there are other
things that could be improved, but are maybe not
doable soon.</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">1.
New way of animating of nodes</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">The
way we animate nodes is a bit crappy at the moment.
It’s possible, but the way we can control the
keyframes is not really nice. Maybe there could be
some kind of NLA editor for compositing nodes, to
easier drag around keyframe effects AND image
sequences. See next topic.</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">2.
Better way to deal with image sequences</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial">It
is really annoying and tedious how we have to enter
frame length and offset for movies and image
sequences, if not everything starts at frame one.
Could be controlled with some kind of composite NLA
too? This could also touch the way to deal with
length and start of image sequences and movie clips.
But I suppose this is a bit complicated and maybe
also not as super important.</font></div>
<div style="margin:0px"><font face="Helvetica, Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="font-size:13px;margin:0px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px"></span>So,
that’s it. </div>
<div>I’m sure I forgot some things, but so far this is
what I would like to see improved.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers!</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sebastian</div>
</font></span>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br><p style="color:#a0a0a8">On 2. November 2013 at
10:54:04, David McSween (<a href="mailto://3pointedit@gmail.com" target="_blank">3pointedit@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>
<div>
<div><p dir="ltr">I also wondered if it would be
useful for fx work to
have access to the open gl renders from 3d
view? As a scene source
just like BI or Cycles. There are some sorts
of comp effects that
would benefit from the speed of redraw, like
distortion or mapping.
To do matte painting work etc.</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 2 Nov 2013 17:10,
"Aditia A. Pratama"
<<a href="mailto:aditia.ap@gmail.com" target="_blank">aditia.ap@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p>This is my proposal for blender
compositor</p><p>1. viewer cache and viewer proxy for
realtime playback, movie
clip editor has this function</p><p>2. new canvas for compositing where we
can
translate/rotate/scale directly in the
canvas...more flexibility in
the canvas.</p><p>3. ability to add comp to video
sequence editor. We also can
have multiple composite in node
editor...and calling them in video
seq editor for arranging and editing,
it's like improving
post-processing workflow.</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 2, 2013
1:15 PM, "David McSween"
<<a href="mailto:3pointedit@gmail.com" target="_blank">3pointedit@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">Hey Francesco, most
recently I was troubled by the odd
image dimensions issue when trying
to add or modify non-project
sized assets. That is my over height
image was cropped strangely
when alpha overed. I gather from the
Holywood presentation at
bcon13 it is a long standing problem
that isn't just a bug
fix.<br>
David</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 2 Nov 2013
15:56, "Francesco Paglia"
<<a href="mailto:f.paglia.80@gmail.com" target="_blank">f.paglia.80@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi all!
<div>It's a great news to have
this list focused on the
compositor.</div>
<div>I don't really know which
is the main intent of this
list so
let me know if I'm wrong
writing the next few line. </div>
<div>What if we post here about
real production case
demonstrating
which are our actual limits so
we can discuss them with the
module
owner/s and figure out how to
address them?</div>
<div>There are many compositor
in the community like Bartek
Skorupa, Sean Kennedy,
Sebastian Konig, me and many
others that I
don't know or heard about that
I imagine they can share their
thoughts.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Could be possible to know
which dev is reading this list
since
there are more areas of
blender involved since
compositor is a made
of nodes, animations,
compositing itself and render
output?<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hope to hear other
subscribers opinion soon!</div>
<div>Ciao </div>
<div>Francesco</div>
<div><br>
</div>
--<br>
Francesco Paglia
<div>Vfx and Production
Supervisor</div>
<div>e-mail <a href="mailto:f.paglia.80@gmail.com" target="_blank">f.paglia.80@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Francesco Paglia<div>Vfx and Production Supervisor</div><div>e-mail <a href="mailto:f.paglia.80@gmail.com" target="_blank">f.paglia.80@gmail.com</a><br></div>
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